Episode 87: Martha Piland

Introduction: I've had the privilege of being in and around banking for more than 50 years. Lots of changes during that time. We've gone from ledgers to laptops, typewriters to technology. One thing, however, remains the same. Banking is a people business. And I'll be talking with those people that make banking great here on, Jack Rants with Modern Bankers.

Welcome to Jack Rants with modern bankers. It's brought to you every week by RelPro and Vertical IQ. After six decades in banking, it's time to give back. And, I hope this program amplifies that. Every week I feature top voices in financial services, bankers, consultants, best selling authors and more. The goal here is to provide insights, success practices, and, and to bring new ideas to the table that you can use to maximize your results in 2024 and beyond. Author, innovator, speaker, entrepreneur Martha Bartlett Piland checks every one of those boxes. Martha earned a BA in communications and journalism from Washburn University. She founded MB Thailand advertising plus marketing in 1998 and added Banktastic to her solution, Mix in 2019. Martha is a prolific writer and speaks often at banking and other industry conferences. Her book, Beyond Sticky, takes a practical look at branding from the outside and the inside. We talk branding today and a little bit about millennials too, with Martha Bartlett Pyland on Jack Rants with Modern Bankers.

Here we go. So, as I mentioned in the introduction, Martha Bartlett Pyland wrote this tremendous book. She was kind enough to send it to me and I've read it cover to cover a couple of times. Beyond sticky, get off the commodity hamster wheel and create a bank brand people love. And that's what we're going to talk about today. Martha, great to have you with us.

Martha Bartlett Pyland: I'm so glad to be here, Jack, thank you for the invitation.

Jack Hubbard: So, as I mentioned in the introduction, you have a tremendous company, Banktastic. Talk about the company, what you do and who you help.

Martha Bartlett Pyland: We are a bank marketing firm who works with, well, lots of financial brands, banks, credit unions, fintechs, and those who serve, banks and credit unions. And we help them develop outcomes based programs in order to build love and loyalty.

Jack Hubbard: Well, one of the things you said there I think is really important for banks and that is you work with other kinds of financial institutions. I'm curious, when you do branding and marketing for fintechs and companies that are related to financial institutions, what are you seeing about what they need compared to community banks, for example, and what they're looking to do in marketing?

Martha Bartlett Pyland: Well, the audiences are certainly different. The challenge I see with banks and credit unions is they have difficulty thinking in their own minds about differentiating their brand. They talk about great service and we know your name, and fast local loan decisions, and those are important things, but they're not your brand. That's what people expect from you. On the flip side, if we're thinking about those who serve a bank or credit union, of course their audience is different. but something similar, I would say, in both cases is they need to think about what is the pain point or pain points of their customers and how do they bring value to solve that, and sometimes our inclination is to jump to the razzle dazzle without thinking about what is really difficult for our audience and how do we help them? How do we make their lives easier and better, how do we help them be successful?

Jack Hubbard: Well, that's a good point. And, you know, I did an interview recently with a gentleman named Neil Ford, who's a storyteller, and he's absolutely amazing. And it kind of got me to the fact that bank brands really need to be telling a story. And in your book, you really do help them do that. I'm curious, what was the inspiration for Beyond Sticky when you wrote it back in 2019?

Martha Bartlett Pyland: The inspiration for the book was helping scale our advice and our guidance beyond what a few people can do. Obviously, publishing a book, there are lots more people who can read it and find some nuggets of value to help them. That was based on common problems that we saw over and over again. Those problems are branding, as I said, really better articulating their brand culture. innovation, business development, those are all things that we saw many financial brands had difficulty with. So it made a lot of sense to write a book and write about those topics and help people. Maybe have some aha's about how that applies to them and give them some action steps to make some changes.

Jack Hubbard: Oh, that makes a lot of sense. I'm curious, I've interviewed a lot of best selling authors like you, and everybody has a different way of writing a book. When I wrote my book back in 2007, I really dove into this and I found that that was probably not a good idea. I think I overwrote on some days. I've heard other authors say, look, I carved out 15 or 20 minutes every day, and then that's how I ended up getting my book completed. What was your process? How did you end up writing the book?

Martha Bartlett Pyland: Discipline, actually. I write a lot of content for our blog, and I am a contributor to, ABa banking journal and financial brand and some other publications. Part of what helps me is to just carve out time on my calendar where I work on content. Here at my office, I call that no, Martha, Monday Mondays are my day to work on content. And so thinking about writing a book, that was a very important part of that is write, write, write, write, write. And, try not to judge my content or edit my contents too soon, but to get it out there. And then, you know, I could go away from it for a few days, and then I could come back. And so after I had a whole bunch of stuff, I did it the old school way. I used sticky notes with main, ideas, and I spread them all out the conference table and then started rearranging them in different ways until I felt like they were coming together in a way that made sense. And, then I could also see where. Am I missing something? What do I need to go back and add to? And after I. After it sort of started taking that form, then I could go back and edit and chop some things out or refine or look for those ways to add and make it better. So that was my process. And then after, after I did that, I put those sticky notes on some, some cardboard so that I could, you know, move them off my table and, look at them again and sort of let that. Let that information process for me. So then I could go back and rearrange things some more if I felt like I needed to till it was where I wanted it to be. And then I took all that stuff that I had written on my computer and started rearranging to follow that outline that I did on paper.

Jack Hubbard: Oh, that's very cool. And you are disciplined, and I've seen many of your articles in Aba journal and the financial brand. I'm curious, with your clients, what, are you seeing bankers do around writing to build their brand? And I know you do a lot of speaking, so what about writing and speaking to build their brand and their local communities? What do you see in there?

Martha Bartlett Pyland: It's difficult, and I think they want to do more and often don't get it done. It is. Again, it's hard to find that time to do that work. And marketing people have so many things put on them, especially in smaller community banks. They are juggling. And those who are really good at juggling and getting things done, people tend to give more to. I think it's very hard for them to create that content themselves. so there are some who use syndicated content, which is great. That's a good step but I don't see a lot of people creating content on their own.

Jack Hubbard: Yeah, I think that's sad. And I think it goes back to your comment about discipline, too. and I'm real big on skunk work projects. Three M came up with that many, many years ago, and that's how post it notes were developed, skunk work projects. And so I think that if a banker or a fintech person or credit union person or anybody wants to really improve their professional lives, they've got to do this on their off hours. and that's where I think discipline comes in. The weekends are great, family's important, golf is terrific. But if you want to look back on your career and say, you know, I wrote that article and it was really well received, and I really helped a lot of people, or I did this speech for the chamber of commerce, and, and I helped two people grow their business, even look back on your career and say, gee, you know, I was able to do that. But you're not going to do it in a nine to five, in a nine to five world. Well, I want to go back to the book because it's so good and it's so practical. If you were to write the book today, because it's been out now for five years, what would you add? What would you change?

Martha Bartlett Pyland: That's a good question. If I were to write the book now or do a second edition and add to it, I would probably write more about social media and helping people use that better, either for selling or for building their brand or those different areas that it can be used for. Although obviously they can listen to your podcast and learn a lot about how to do that. but I think the other challenge is many banks feel so confined by what they can do on social media. Their social media policies are often, you know, you can like or share, but you can't comment, or they're discouraged from creating a lot of content on their own. So, finding some ways to help them do that better, I would share in the book and, and a, recent connection of mine, autumn Jose from Sivista bank, has created a, kind of a social media all stars within her bank, and she's trained some people, in different departments, not just marketing, to help, shore up their social media, not just like and share, but also do more to build out really good content. And she's got some good structure there to help do that. So everybody is on the correct side of compliance and so on. But I think more detail in a book would help others feel more confident and secure that they could do it and do it right. but the other thing otherwise, about the book, I refer back to a, ah, conversation you and John Oxford had on a recent podcast. And I think John said, get the basics down first. You know, there's so many things that are just block and tackle that people need to do first before they expand and do all these other things. And I would agree with that and emphasize that very much.

Jack Hubbard: Yeah, no doubt. And I want to dive into the book and I want to talk about one concept that I need your opinion on. But, it relates to a comment that I want to make around social media. I find it incredibly sad and really ridiculous that a CEO or a chief information officer or somebody in compliance would prevent a banker, an adult, who they hire and they expect to do a good job from posting things on LinkedIn now. They need bumpers. They need to understand that you don't push product, you don't talk about rate, you don't talk about privacy issues, things like that. But my God, this is 2024. And I find it really sad. I'll tell you a quick story. I'm doing a program for a trade association, a one day, sales program for a trade association. 

And whenever I speak, I always reach out on LinkedIn to connect with people beforehand. I want to look at their profile and things like that. And almost 40% of the people that I am training are not on LinkedIn. I can't find them. They must be in the witness protection program because I can't find them. And I don't care if you live in a town of 5000 people or 5 million people, you are very present by your absence on LinkedIn. And this all does start with leadership and getting the c suite to understand the power of social collaboration. This is not Facebook for business. This is not TikTok or Twitter or any of those other kinds of things. This is a very different approach. And you do write a lot about it, in the book. So it's my rant for the day, but I want to get back to the c suite. One of the things you talk about in the book is helping cmos chief marketing officers by designating them with a C suite person to report to. Who are you seeing now in community banking?

Martha Bartlett Pyland: That's a good question. Some are in the c suite, which is ideal because they should be asking questions and bringing value and connecting the dots between all the other departments of the bank or the different business units. If they are not. Who should they report to? Maybe operations, the coo? Because a lot of what we do as marketers, if we're really doing a good job, is we're thinking about customer experience, employee experience. So what does that take? It's not just our brand or a slogan, but it's also this interaction that people have with us. What is it like when they come to our website? What is it like when they use our app? What happens when they come into a branch to get some help with something? And, operations should be able to help move some pieces and parts if there are some missing links or some broken links that marketing can observe and help put together.

Jack Hubbard: Yeah, and I think that my next question kind of piggybacks on that. You know, I've taught at 13 banking schools, and when I go up to Madison and teach a graduate school of banking, or teach at the, strategic marketing school, one of the things cmos ask is, okay, I'm a little frustrated because I want to get to the C suite and I'm frustrated. How are you helping your cmos migrate their careers so that they get on a team instead of sitting at the little kids table?

Martha Bartlett Pyland: Cmos should be thinking about speaking the language of the C suite. So it's great to say, we have more brand awareness than we had, or it's great to say, you know, this campaign won this award, but really they should be talking about, what are the results of what we did? What is the ROI? Or can we tell a story, as you mentioned earlier, can we tell a story about something that happened and how we helped move this customer that we really wanted from another institution to ours? How does the work that we do bring value to the institution, to the bottom line? And so some of that starts with building out a marketing plan that has measurable goals and objectives and has benchmarks that we're going to measure along the way and then reporting that up? 

But then also asking questions. Can they go to the CFO and ask questions about why this is a goal for the bank? And how can we, as marketing, support it? Or can we go to operations and say, why is this a goal for the bank? How can we, as marketing, support it? And, I believe that by proactively creating some of those conversations that's going to be like, make the light bulb come on with those other leaders in the bank. Hey, marketing is asking us some really smart questions, and they're helping us think about how we can move forward and they're helping us do it. And I think that's a way to earn a seat at the table. I recently heard somebody, and I wish I could remember what bank it was, that a CMO just started attending the Alco meetings, invited herself, and I think people were so surprised that they didn't ask her why she was there. And over time, then she was able to be more accepted and start asking some questions in that group and again, elevate that perception of what marketing is there to do. That's pretty bold, but it worked for one.

Jack Hubbard: Well, I wish I knew that person's name so I could give them a high five. One of the things, and I agree with you, I think the ROI thing is the real key. The other thing is we, as senior executives of a bank, need to help the marketing officer understand how the bank makes money. When I talk to marketing people, a lot of times I ask them about margins and return on assets, return on equity. They don't understand. They don't understand how the commercial bank makes money. And I think that's a real problem. But it leads me to another question, about your book, my favorite chapter, and you won't be surprised at this, if you, my friend, are in sales. I believe the number one role in bank marketing is to create, develop and find quality leads for their bankers. That doesn't happen by magic. What are you seeing your clients do to help cmos understand sales skills and get more involved in the sales process?

Martha Bartlett Pyland: That's a difficulty for a lot of smaller institutions. I do think that's a gap, for larger institutions. I see some things like, connecting marketing with business development and them looking at that CRM m together and building out those steps throughout that lengthy sales pipeline so that everybody can see what's happening. Because then a smart CMO can help develop more content that the business development people can use, or they can build some automations so that we can nurture a lead along until it's time for somebody to call on them in person. but I think there's a real gap there. And, so they need you.

Jack Hubbard: Well, you may be used to, there's so many good people out there that do sales training. My friend Joe Mikalef, who's in Iowa, you know, Ned Miller, Nick Miller, they're all so good. And I agree. And I'll add to what you said. I think that they need to attend, like your banker, they need to attend pipeline meetings, they need to understand the language, they need to understand how the bank makes money. Those things are so important. and if not, the banker is going to be, this marketing officer is going to be relegated to a different role and in support role, and they're going to get very, very frustrated. Well, you work with community banks, you work with credit unions. you help them develop brands, but that takes money. I'm a $750 million bank or credit union. I don't have all the budget of bank of America or John Oxford's bank, Renaissance bank. What advice do you have for a small community bank who wants to establish and grow and sustain their brand, but they don't have a ton of money in a budget.

Martha Bartlett Pyland: To start out with. They should do some really deep soul searching about what they are best at, what kind of customers they are best at serving. When you have a very limited budget, even when you have a big budget, you cannot be all things to all people. You need to focus. So are you really good at helping small businesses or are you really good at helping family owned businesses or are you great at helping entrepreneurs with side hustles? Start there and really get good at that and saturate that market within your footprint, have your social media content, talk about that and tell stories about how you brought solutions. 

Do your business development around, calling on those kinds of folks that you want to work with, use your sponsorship dollars to support those kinds of things that are aligned with that area that you're really good at. So I would say, that doesn't mean you're always going to only have one vertical, or maybe you will. Maybe you can just blow the doors off of that and expand, expand, expand. But I think it is often a temptation to say, well, everybody should be our customer. We want everybody. And sure you do. You do want to have everybody, but you can't afford to spend money to reach everybody and you don't have enough personal power to go out there and meet everybody. So start. Start with something that you're really, really good at and fully, fully leverage that before you then take the next step. And the next step.

Jack Hubbard: Good point. I've always heard that a business will never be taken down from the outside in. it always happens from the inside out. And I think too often we have not done enough as we're trying to build our brand, to build an employer brand, employee experience, a leadership culture. this is something you do a lot with your clients. What are you seeing around this in banking and how's it working?

Martha Bartlett Pyland: I'm not seeing enough of it, but I'm seeing some institutions do some really exciting things. it's way too easy to just hire people and put them in place and let them go. But that also means you're going to have a revolving door of people and those who are investing in not just that basic training that everybody needs, but also helping their employees understand what's our purpose, what are we here to do, and how can you help be part of that? That's really important, especially for millennials and Gen Z. They want to do purposeful work, so I think that's really important. And then also thinking about employee leadership programs, how do you continue to engage people and feel like you are investing in them, that they are important and they're vital to the future of the bank. 

So, for instance, one client we're working with now has a leadership program for people that want to continue to stay with the bank and grow into higher leadership levels. And so this is a. I think it's a nine month program where there are different areas that we focus on each month. There is homework in between. There's a capstone project. And, the idea is that it will help develop these people to be greater leaders within the bank. And it also gives them some visibility, across the bank, outside of their departments where they work, and with the c suite, so people can see and appreciate, ah, look at these really sharp people that we have to work with us. Let's call on them the next time we have a special project and we need more brain power or, let's make sure that we're thinking about them when we are launching something new. I think work like that, you may not see the ROI immediately, but it's probably pretty easy to measure if you think about how long these folks stay versus those who do not get that kind of mentoring and that kind of development.

Jack Hubbard: Well, without mentioning the name of the bank, of course. How big is this bank?

Martha Bartlett Pyland: This is a $10 billion bank. So it's a big bank, big bank. but I've seen this to smaller degrees and smaller institutions as well. And some people do a diy type approach, or they can reach out to other resources in the community. So you think about the chambers of commerce, or there's probably a leadership center in your community. There are resources like that that a bank could call on or credit union could call on to bring in and do some training at a, low cost or, maybe even sometimes no cost point, ah, of entry to get them started. So I would encourage people to look at that and see what's out here in my community that I could take advantage of right now for my people.

Jack Hubbard: Boy, that's so important, and I'm glad you're doing that work. My good friend Neal Stephens is president and CEO of Oconee State bank, and he's written a book called leading Life on life. And the book was written for the Oconee Bank foundation, so all the proceeds go to the foundation, which is great. But he's also taking the book chapter by chapter, and leading, actually leading as the CEO of the bank. This is a $650 million bank. These leading sessions with his team, with all the bankers, and so they understand the process of leadership. And I think you've hit on something really important. You know, it costs so much money when someone leaves. If you make a bad mistake, hiring a commercial lending officer costs you $200,000. That's a big number. And so why not teach these people and get them involved in the culture? And I think that's a huge mistake where bankers are kind of shy about investing some money there.

And I'm glad you're helping that bank along with that, you mentioned millennials. I hear a lot of things about millennials. Lazy, want everything handed to them. I have some older millennial children, and I don't find that to be true at all. You develop something very unique. Millennial advisory board. Talk about what that is.

Martha Bartlett Pyland: We developed that millennial advisory board because we recognized many financial institutions having difficulty being relevant to millennials. And yet by at least Forbes says by 2030, there's going to be a $68 trillion wealth transfer, trillion to millennials. So banks, credit unions, fintechs, investment advisors should really be caring about changing the way they do things so that they can be relevant to millennials. Now, I am not suggesting that they stop doing things that appeal to their other audiences, but I am saying millennials are this very important audience that's going to change things for them, them in the next seven years, six years. 

So we can say that all day long, but if we don't have some good foundation to back it up, you know, how does that bring credibility to us? So we said, let's gather a group of millennials and help be a good resource for us and for our clients. So we began recruiting millennials from across the country, and we now have nearly 400 who are a diverse group across the Us who regularly answer a survey from us each month. And we have a private social media group with them. 

So we have cultivated conversation with them about lots of different things. About money, investing, lifestyle, insurance, what all is tied together, basically, for their financial lives. and then we have also pulled them together for focus groups. We can use them for special studies for a client who wants to test a campaign or a product. And so this group is paid, so we feel like, you know, they're, they're treating this as a professional advisor role for us. And, they inform a lot of the content that we write. So on our blog, on banktastic.com, comma, you'll see a lot of information about millennials. But then they are also there for us to call on when we want to do a special study for a client. That brings us a lot of relevance to what we're talking about and brings a lot of value to clients.

Jack Hubbard: Well, what you've done is to carve out a space that other marketing consulting firms like yourself, may not be doing. It's a great example of how a bank can carve out a niche and be really, really successful. As you do interviews with millennials, what are they saying about banking I'm curious, as you talk to millennials, and I'm sure you sell these reports, so I don't want you to reveal any totally private things. But as you do your interviews with millennials, what are they saying about banking?

Martha Bartlett Pyland: Number one, they are hungry for financial education. And I know we hear that all the time, we see it all the time, but how many people are actually doing it? they're hungry for proactive advice from a banker. And a lot of us have this perception that they only want to do banking on their phone. And yes, they do want to do banking on their phone, and they also want a real person when they have a question or when they have a problem. So, basically, millennial bank customers want it all when they want it. So when some people say, oh, branches are dead, I don't think they are. Maybe the old style branches are dead. But our millennial audiences still want people, and they still want some experience of somebody that cares about them and understands them and wants to help.

Jack Hubbard: That makes sense. And we talk about millennials, and when we think about them, it's more consumer banking or retail banking. But there are a lot of millennials that are business owners. In your studies, what are they asking for from their bank?

Martha Bartlett Pyland: Nearly half of millennials and Gen Z have a side hustle. Some of those are entrepreneurial gigs, and some of them are also working for somebody else. But there's also, then, a large segment of millennials who are business owners. That's all they do. And we did a focus group. We've done several studies with them, on small business, and so you won't be surprised to hear that they want financial education. They want somebody to be proactive, and their banker to call them and say, hey, look, I see you've got a whole bunch of money sitting in your checking account that's not doing you any good. What if we move some of that into a high yield savings account and help you earn some money? What if we helped you move that into a CD and helped you earn some money? 

So they're asking for people, they're asking for their bankers to help them with things like that. The other thing, and I think this is where an innovative banker can really come in and set their institution apart, is that millennials are saying, help me make connections with other people in the community. You know, networking is hard, especially coming out of COVID Some of them don't quite know where to go or what to do. Help me make some connections with some other bank customers. Some of them said, hey, why don't you start an incubator or some kind of series of small business classes for us small business owners that would help us be more successful. And then the other thing that we learned in the focus groups we did is it was kind of like an aha moment for me. 

They said, how about a, like a customer success manager? You know, if you adopt a new bit of software, there's somebody that's going to help you onboard, and they're going to make sure that you learn how to use it correctly and that you are feeling like you're getting some good return on this investment that you've made in your software. Why don't we do something like that for our small business owners who are customers of the bank? Help them be more successful and find out by having conversations with them, what that is that they need, and then helping them use those bank products or services to be more successful, or, ooh, maybe learn that there are some other bank products and services that we don't have, but we should offer.

Jack Hubbard: Interesting. Well, that is terrific work. That is absolutely wonderful work. And I've been really looking forward to interviewing you, for, in general, about your book and all the great things that you do. But one of the things I know you have done is you've been on three bank advisory boards. This is such a vital part of the community and can be so valuable to the bank. What do you think? if you are going to advise a bank to start an advisory board, just give me a sense of where they start and what their responsibilities should be.

Martha Bartlett Pyland: If a bank or credit union wants to start an advisory board, they should treat it in a businesslike manner, just as if it were an official board member. Job description. They recruit these people carefully, invite them to join. They have a purpose for having them be there. there are term limits and, there's an NDA or something that they mutually sign. So we're treating this in a business like manner. They should make sure that they've got diversity on their board. Of course. Sometimes people will initially just gravitate to, who are those business leaders in the community? Okay, I want them. Well, sure you do, but who are some of those people that are flying under the radar, who also could give you some good advice or be a good advisor or ambassador for you? And then I think the other thing is important is to bring on some younger people. So I'm going to talk about millennials again. 

Get some millennials on your advisory board. I've seen many advisory boards that have gotten pretty old and stale. It's the same, you know, usual suspects in the community, and they're on the board and they come and the bank just talks at them. So here's the other thing. If you are going to have an advisory board, their purpose is to help open doors for you. They should advocate for you, and they should bank with you. Don't let them be on your board if they're not banking with you. listen, ask them, what do you see happening in the community that maybe we should know about or where we could bring some value? Because they're probably going to hear some things before you do. and then listen. Of the boards I have sat on, the bank wants to spend the majority of the time talking about what the bank is doing, and then there's not very much time for the advisory board to speak. 

And you should be listening, listening, listening, because then that's where you can hear what people think about you in the marketplace or what your board member understands or doesn't understand about you, and what are some other opportunities that perhaps you could be taking advantage of. So, a board, when really well constructed and well run, can be a huge asset for the bank. I'd encourage everybody to think about this and do it. and finally, I think they should be compensated. Again, treat this like a business like engagement, because that's what it is.

Jack Hubbard: Yeah. And along with the compensation comes consequences. I love what you said about term limits. I've just seen advisory boards. It's evergreen, they're on all the time. With compensation comes consequences. They need to have a, ah, goal, a standard. You must make at least one referral per year, whatever the number is. Something small enough where they feel like they have skin in the game and they're getting something for their compensation. They're doing something for their compensation. The other thing that's interesting is I'll ask the chairman, presidents, I'll say, well, talk to me about your advisory board and what kind of referral training have you done for them? Well, we have, if you want your advisory board to be better, teach them how to give referrals, teach them what to look for, teach them how to start a conversation. If they're out at the country club or they're playing golf, you don't want them to just jump in and say, hey, where do you do your banking? It's all about the conversation. I also think they should have business cards, and I think that's a big failure of a lot of advisory boards. Are you seeing that too?

Martha Bartlett Pyland: Yes. One advisory board I served on had business cards, the other two did not. And I agree with you. I think that's very smart.

Jack Hubbard: Yeah, yeah. It gives you a little different flavor of what you do. I've also seen bank advisory boards meet quarterly, and you have a speaker. and so there's, you know, you serve them a meal and you talk about referrals, and then there's a speaker, and then after that there's some networking and, with, with the bankers, et cetera, et cetera. So I'm really, this is a powerful thing, and I'm sure you've written about it, and I'm glad you have some expertise in it because there are a lot of consultants that don't. I can't leave this conversation without talking about AI and chat, GPT and Microsoft copilot. You work with a lot of different kinds of financial services organizations, and I'm sure many of them are what we might call community based. What are you seeing with your clients in terms of marketing now? Let's stay with marketing in terms of marketing and their use of things like chat, GPT and copilot, etcetera.

Martha Bartlett Pyland: It's a mixed bag. Many of the marketing folks that I, talk with are not allowed to use chat, GPT or other AI at work. They're not supposed to be using it for the bank, which is unfortunate, because, again, we're adults. If we have the proper guardrails and the proper procedures, why shouldn't they be able to use AI to help them in their jobs. So some are having to do it at home separately, maybe create something, and then come to the bank and do it. they want to and they're finding ways to, you know, do that work on their own and then bring it in. Others who are able to do it at work feel like it's a fantastic opportunity. So what I'm seeing them do, it's helping them write social media content, it's helping them create graphics for their social media, and it's helping them write some content for their website. I throw out the caveat that, yes, everybody should be using this as a tool. It's a tool, it's not a replacement. And so sometimes there's a danger of thinking, this is great, I'm going to publish it, but it's probably not branded, it's, I'd consider it a first draft.

So we get this graphic and we say, oh, that's beautiful. Wow, that's amazing. It happened in 10 seconds. But wait a minute, is it really our brand colors or is it really the style that we say in our style manual that our graphics should be? So if I'm really using it strategically, I'm going to revise those prompts and revise those prompts and revise those prompts until I get something that really does look and feel like our brand. Same thing with the copy. we have to keep doing that and pushing it, pushing it, and then we're probably going to have to take it and edit ourselves. And so people who are doing that are finding that it gives them some inspiration, it saves them some time, and helps them be more effective in their jobs. But we've got to help those, we've got to help those folks that aren't able to use it at work.

Jack Hubbard: Yeah. And I think one of the benefits of remote work is you can have your personal computer and your bank computer right side by side and you can be doing one thing on your personal computer. And I had a colleague, I've written an article for a major trade publication that's coming out soon, and I had a colleague read it and they said, oh, this is really good. How did chat GPT help you? And I said, I don't use chat GPT much, Jack. GPT wrote this article. So I think you're right. I think too often what happens is we look at this tool and that's all it is. And, well, that's it. That's the article. Well, wait a second. It's not you. It's not totally you who makes it you. And if you want to use it a little bit, great. But it can't be a crutch, it can't take over your life and your job. 

Well, it's been fun. I've really enjoyed this. I've been looking forward to it. I love your book. You gotta go buy the book. It was written in 2019, but if you go by, go through these pages, it is still 100% relevant today. So I'm holding the book because I'm an avid reader. I love to read books. And, I'm sure you do, too. Talk to me a little bit about folks. You're reading podcasts, you're experiencing blogs, you're seeing. How do you keep your saw sharpened?

Martha Bartlett Pyland: I love to continue to read and learn and listen. I listen to a lot of audiobooks, so I can do that while I'm getting ready in the morning. but I like a good old fashioned book as well. so of course I listen to you. I really like Seth Godin. And so I like to have a mix of people who are in the banking business and those who are not because I think that helps us, have other ideas coming, coming from different industries. But Seth Godin is really good about that. I listen to banking with interest. I listen to James Robert Lay. I listen to the Bankedelic podcast. and I love to read, read, read. One of my favorite authors is August Tourak. He wrote business secrets of the trappist monks. And it's a lot about, well, it's about a lot of things, but it certainly has some great ways to think about service and selflessness and how we bring that to our customers and the people we work with. It's great. I hang out in some online groups. Eric Cook has a banker happy hour once a month. And that's for all kinds of folks who want to join in and have a conversation. So I'm constantly looking for things to keep my brain thinking and help me generate new ideas.

Jack Hubbard: Well, you've mentioned some great friends of mine and some great people in banking, no doubt. Well, this has been wonderful, and I appreciate your time so much. you mentioned your Banktastic blog. how can people get a hold of you, follow you, see your blog, etcetera.

Martha Bartlett Pyland: They can follow me or join me on LinkedIn. And also, if you come to our website, banktastic.com, and you would like to receive our content, we do send out fresh content twice a month, and you can do that as well.

Jack Hubbard: Thanks for listening to this episode of Jack Rants with modern bankers with Martha Bartlett pilot. Check out her book, too. Beyond sticky deposits. Even at the midpoint of 2024, we're still talking about them. Next week we get to the point on deposits. The core point with its founder and CEO Neal Stanley will try to figure out this deposit thing.

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