Episode 41: Bill Fink

Jack Hubbard  00:01

I've had the privilege of being in and around banking for more than 50 years. Lots of changes during that time. We've gone from Ledger's to laptops, typewriters to technology. One thing, however, remains the same. Banking is a people business. And I'll be talking with those people that make banking great here on Jack Rants With Modern bankers. 

Welcome to Jack Rants With Modern Bankers brought to you by RelPro, and Vertical IQ. Each week I feature top voices in financial services from bankers and consultants, to best selling authors and many more. The goal of this program is simple, to provide insights, success practices and to bring new ideas to the table that you can use to maximize your results. 

My final guest for 2023 is also my first guest of 2024. It’s my two part interview with my great banking friend, Bill Fink. I’ve known Bill for 25 years. He’s an MBA grad of St. Joseph University but there’s so much more. Bill’s a lifetime learner with leadership, risk management and other certificates from prestigious universities  like Notre Dame , Warden and Stanford. Now, if that weren't enough, he’s a CPA too.

Bill is EVP and head of US Commercial Banks Strategic partnership for TD bank. He’s a regular speaker, podcast guest and publishes 3 quarterly newsletters on CFO issues, the economy and more. It’s a wide ranging conversation about the economy, geopolitical challenges and much more on Part 1, Bill Fink, on Jack Rants with Modern Bankers. Here we go!

So, as I mentioned in the introduction, I met Bill Fink, probably 25 years ago, and I view Bill as one of the top 3 most intelligent bankers that I know.  Listen to this. The guy's a CPA and he's gonna tell you a little bit more about his role but he's also a sales guy. And he goes on a lot of joint calls all around the country with his Td colleagues, Bill. It's so great to have you with us.

Bill Fink 00:00:29

Jack. It's an honor I can't begin to express how pleased I am to be your guest. You've been such an important figure, and I'll say an instrumental figure in my development over those last 25 years. I consider you certainly a mentor, I would say a positive critic at times to keep me focused on what we do, and certainly have refined my critical thinking beyond the sales process. But to be a better banker, so let me start your holidays by saying thank you. I could from the bottom of my heart I can't be more pleased to be a guest, and to have a conversation with you.

Jack Hubbard  03:01

Well, me, too, Bill, and this is our last program of the year, and I couldn't think of anybody more perfect than you, because you have a real handle on what's going on in banking and the economy. But, as you know, I always like to start out the program with, tell me something good. What's going on? Well, in your life, Bill?

Bill Fink 03:17

Well, I would say to you, here we are on a Monday after a football weekend. So I sew for you the bears one, and I would say the Cleveland Brown one, and seem to be back on track, so I'll start. Be thankful for small gifts, my mother always told me, and I'll start there and then, as I look ahead as we talk today on December eleventh. Jack, I'm pleased to be able to tell you. I've got all my holiday plans, preparations done, and you know you talk about small gifts that continue to give. I couldn't be more pleased with that.

And I'll leave you with one I know that's near and dear to your heart. My wife and I will venture over that Christmas holiday to one of my favorite places. Period we're gonna make our way to Cooperstown, New York. And yes, I'm going to walk through the hallowed halls of the baseball hall of Fame which gives me immense pleasure.

Jack Hubbard  04:09

Oh, that's great, and I know that's at least your second time, because you had the opportunity to go with your dad, and, as you know, I took my son Adam there over the summer, and it's a it's pretty amazing place, and Cooperstown over Christmas time must be beautiful. 

Bill Fink 04:23

Yes, we happened to go there for the first time at Christmas time last year, and it is, it's not crowded, and it is… just picturesque. It's something off of almost like a hallmark greeting card. 

Jack Hubbard  04:42

Oh, that's for sure. Well, that's great. Well, Bill, as I mentioned in my introduction, you have tons of titles and tons of experience, but help people understand your role at TD. It's a big one, and it's an important one. 

Bill Fink 04:248

Yes, so. like many of our large peers, we have an investment bank, TD Securities, and I have an immense amount of interaction and respect over the years for my colleagues there, and I've been on the banking side, so I've had the pleasure to be on the Credit Risk side. I formed our credit management function 12 years ago that led the Middle Market over the past 2 and a half to 3 quarters years, and I was tapped. Jack, as I know you're aware, to come together and bridge and build that cause way. If I could call it that between Td securities and Td bank. What that means specifically, is we're looking at product, interactions, delivery, implementation for new product. 

So we want to maximize the customer opportunity not just to be siloed with products of the bank, but to look at advisory services, opportunities for debt, capital markets, equity, capital markets, foreign exchange. And I'm just touching the major areas of that iceberg, if you will.And really to think differently. Unlike, I would say, the history of our industry is, there's the investment banking side, and there's the commercial banking side, and we all strive to do better to bridge that and deliver seamlessly for our clients, and we've taken the step. Given my background credit, risk, credit management, deep commercial, knowing and working with folks at TDs over the years we've taken the initiative to put me as that person. So I had a Cross Organizational Operating Council. I'm Co-Chairman of that Council, and I'm the point person in the Commercial Bank for all activity that involves cross organizational work with TD Securities.

Jack Hubbard 00:04:55

Well, it's a big role Bill, and the other role that you've filled over the years is as a coach and a mentor, and, as I mentioned, you're a CPA. But you have a sales brain. I'm curious. How does that all play out? I mean a lot of Cpas that I know are much more analytical as you are. You're so good with the numbers, but very few can bridge that gap over into the sales process. How did that happen?

Bill Fink 00:05:24

Well, I would say I was a banker always with that analytic skill, and it was recognized for that analytic skill. But I learned very early on that to be successful and go back early in my career we used to describe the up and coming stars as being superstars. If they could generate business structure, business, and manage a book of business, and if you could have what they referred to as 3 legs of the stool. If you could embrace those 3 legs of the stool you were, quote a “superstar,” and, you know, give a little bit of context.

I'm in the last training class before Finder, Grinder, Minder emerged many years ago, and so there was a very strong emphasis on that holistic mobility to do all 3, and we've become very regimented today in a positive way of recognizing people's strengths and somewhat channeling them to sales, credit, credit risk operations, etc. But I feel extremely fortunate to have that broad base to be able to go out and sit in front of clients and talk about. You know, how do you make money? What drives your business? What's important to you? And always being able to ask those questions. And part of it's the analytic side of my brain, that piece that never goes off at. And I look at it, Jack. So I say to people simply, how do you make money? And what I find unbelievably fascinating is we have clients in the same industry, often with the same revenue size, similar balance sheets. 

But they're successful for different reasons, and coming to understand what they define success to be and how they make money in that process. What do they emphasize? It's just been fascinating. In my career, one of the highlights of being a banker is to be able to sit down with people in different industries, and they have extended family in the business. That's a driver of stability and providing employment for families at large. Other people have a different profit or economic motivation than others, and being able to sit and talk to people about that has just been totally satisfying and very fulfilling.

Jack Hubbard 00:07:52

Well, you've done a great job with it. In October you were on an ABA podcast and you talked about higher, for longer. And this will get us into our discussion about what you see going forward, what is higher for longer mean? And what do you see in 2024? What's in your crystal ball? 

Bill Fink 00:10:06

Oh, it's the question. So this is a great segue to digging deeper into our conversation, and I think the popular press and I'll say multimedia beyond the press these days is the expectation that the Fed is going to reduce interest rates. And it's been simmering for some time. And it's the question, when does that happen? And I think Jerome Powell and he's got a very difficult job. I think he signals properly that it's gonna take time. And when you look at 2024. Let me start, and I'll just say unequivocally. Rates will come down in 2024.

I'll start there now. The question becomes, I always get how much Bill. you know. And when? And I say, that is the essence of the discussion. And I do believe in TD. Economics. My colleagues there were in communication. Often we are looking at the beginning in the second, at the probably the third quarter of 2024, we are expecting a and projecting a 50 basis point reduction in the third quarter we're expecting and projecting a 50 basis point reduction in the fourth quarter.

So in 2024, we are projecting 100 basis point reduction rates. Jack, you can go online. And I follow all these. So there's one very, very popular I'll say quasiconometric organization that has come down 125 to 150 basis points beginning in March. I'm not saying they're right or wrong. We believe that's optimistic. And I'm optimistic. For this reason. If you happen to see the recent release by the Bureau of Labor Statistics and specifically annual wage growth just came out last week. Annual wage growth in November was at 4%, and that is clearly down from the highs of 2022. But it doesn't support the Fed's target inflation rate of 2%.

So that rate needs to come down a bit further, if we're going to get close to the Fed's target rate of 2%, we don't believe that that happens based on the factors that we see at present that the speed of the economy will not slow sufficiently by the early part of next year, in order to accomplish that. That is one reason why the Fed continues to hold out and doesn't say emphatically that it's done raising interest rates.

The other part that is clear is just the human sentiment mindset. As soon as they signal, and they say definitively, they're done raising interest rates. The natural human emotion is, when you are going to cut the risk, there will be a positive uptick when they announce that they have finished raising rates. if they do that too soon. and the fundamentals are not entrenched to withstand that uptick they could announce, and we could see a resurgence of inflation. So I don't envy the job Jerome Powell has to do at all. But we do expect there will be rate reductions in 2024 going into 2025, and I'll get into more in 2025 when we talk a bit further, but we see that it is going to happen. 

And you look at it and you say it is going to happen. It's clear that the economy is slowing.There's no question at all. The latest October annual inflation data. We're at 3.2, you know. June of 2022. We were at 9.1, and it's been coming down concurrently. You know the core PCE index which is the Fed's golden standard, is now down to 3.5. That continues to reduce, you know, in June it was 4.2 8 rounded up to 4.3. So we're getting this gradual slowing of the economy, which is good unemployment has remained relatively stable.

The one area which we're paying a good bit of attention to is unemployment rate has stayed relatively low, and because the participation rate hasn't spiked back up one indicator we're watching is the jobless claims as of November eleventh were 1.8 4 million and that is up from November of 2022 from 1.5 5 million. 

So we're watching that jobless claims number. If it continues to tick up. That is a good indicator. The economy is going to continue to slow, and that will take some pressure off of also the Treasury yields which have been bouncing around the 10 year Treasury yield. It was over 5%. It's come back down. And that is a further indicator that there's an expectation of less inflation going forward. So I wish it was very simple to say it's one or 2 factors, but I like Chairman Powell's analogy that he uses. And he says, and I think this is very appropriate.

We're navigating by the stars underneath cloudy skies. And I say to myself, and you know, kid, with people, we just don't know how Cloudy is going to be for the future. And hopefully the clouds dissipate, and we move to a more favorable environment more quickly. But that's where we see rates for 2023 into 2024.

Jack Hubbard 00:14:25

Interesting. And you mentioned that the economy is starting to slow down. Now, here's the problem. I'm a bank. I want to grow but the economy is slowing down. So let's get into growth. Let's talk about something positive. Where do you see? The growth will come from in 2024, not only from an industry perspective, but from a banking perspective Bill, because you see it from both sides of the table. 

Bill Fink 00:17:02

Yes, so I have been fascinated by one chart that the St. Louis bed puts out, Jack, since the first time I saw it and I was a baby in this business and it goes back close to 30 years and that chart shows I'll call it 2 hills if you will. and it's from 1948 measured up to the present time. and that shows GDP growth and flows over. You know, 50, 60, 70 years. and it shows bank loan demand. and in most cases loan demand equates to commercial industrial loan demand.

And if you look at 1,948. Until present time there is at various times about quarter to an eighth of an inch difference below where Gdp goes. So I start with, it's just a fact of life that as an industry it is almost impossible on a sustained basis for us to outgrow GDP. And so you start there and you'd say, Okay, the industry will grow at something equating to GDP.

When you look at 2023, we are expected to finish the year with the overall growth rate. Which was 5.2% for the third quarter. But for the year we're expecting something of the order of 2.3 to 2.4 for next year. The Gdp growth Td. Economics is forecasting 1.3. I've seen that range up to 1.5. No question, it's going to slow. So to the heart of your question as a banker I'm charged like my budget goals go up there's an expectation of earnings growth for my bank. So where does that growth come from? Well, I think it's a really fair question. 

So one of the things in the last 5 to 7 years I've gotten very focused on. and it's a great proxy to be able to look at. Where are our clients? Segments have opportunity. Fact set is a an organization that focuses on earnings from publicly traded companies. And Jack I, many of my peers say to me. Well, Bill, I don't bank publicly traded companies, and I use it as a proxy. And if you have an understanding where the publicly traded markets are going, there's an extrapolation within reason that applies to privately held companies. 

So when I look at 2024, the S&P. 500 earnings roll for 2024. And this is from the December first issue of Faxa is projected to grow 11% next year. That's pretty strong growth when you look at it.When you look at that's revenue growth. When well, pardon me, I misspoke. I need to back up. That is, actually earnings growth and revenue growth next year will be 5.5%. The earnings growth is 11%. So companies are certainly focused on more output going forward. And that's what the driver is. 

So efficiency initiatives, AI initiatives just being smarter and being more efficient to grow. When you look at the… There's 11 industry segments that they track. Jack, when you look at their consumer discretionary consumer services, healthcare industrials, utilities, consumer staples, materials, and real estates. In every one of those segments next year from a revenue standpoint, it's projected to grow 2 to 9% And technology and healthcare are the big growers at the upper end of that and you've got materials at the lower end, at the 2%.

When you look at the earnings, growth, same thing, healthcare and commercial services are at the upper end of that spectrum, and you've got materials at the lower end of that spectrum. So there is no question that there's opportunities to grow in certain segments like next year, you know, when I look more specifically at where that growth will come you take that and put it in the context of where the present economy is. And as interest rates begin to come down, the natural question evolves, what industries do well in a declining interest rate environment. So which ones are non sensitive to interest rate changes? 

Number one would be construction and construction trades, manufacturing. Technology continues to boom. But information technology and artificial intelligence is right at the top of that making those investments. One, I know from your podcast that your guest focuses on one that I believe doesn't get enough attention with specifics is data analytics. Overused words but data analytics will continue to evolve into the future to become more useful healthcare services. And that's quite easy, both from a standpoint of declining interest rates and just the demographic profile of the United States continuing as we get older. 

And then personal services as interest rates come down, you look at leisure. You look at travel, you look at things related to that with more discretionary income borrowing, and we're not expecting a recession. We are in the camp up this time, based on what we see today, that we should achieve a soft landing and understanding that there should be higher levels of discretionary income as we look for the future.

Jack Hubbard 00:23:15

Well, let me throw another monkey wrench into this. 2024 is one of those unique years. It's an election year. So how does that all play into this Bill?

Bill Fink 00:23:30

Well, history is the best guide, so the FED has to be positive but can't tip the scales one way or the other, and that's exactly why we're looking at a third quarter reduction in rates. As I said earlier, 50 basis points is our projection. and then the fourth quarter, which is that September to December period which encompasses the election. We're anticipating that that second rate cut will come after the election, so the Fed can achieve its long stated goal. Not to be perceived, to be political, not perceived to be favoring one party versus the other.

And so I expect we will get those 2 rate cuts, but the timing of the second rate cut will follow the election, and II don't have at the moment the 2024 FED schedule, but I'm expecting there will be at least one meeting between after the election to the end of the year, and there's very likely to be 2 meetings if it follows the historic schedule.

Jack Hubbard 00:24:43

All right, let's peel the onion back even further. You do an amazing newsletter called the CFO Newsletter, and wanna talk about it at the end of the show. In your most recent addition. One of the other things you talked about is geopolitical instability. So you've got the FED trying to bring rates down. You've got 2 candidates, whoever they are, gonna run for President and make all kinds of promises that they probably won't keep. But yet you've got certain things that are really out of our control, you know, when I was a baby banker. The world was smaller. And it was sort of the United States of America with a few allies. Now the world is everywhere. 

Geopolitical challenges affect us very personally and very, very importantly, economically. So you had a really good analysis of that in your newsletter, Bill. Talk about geopolitical instability. 

Bill Fink 00:25:43

Well, so as we are having this conversation today, Jack, unfortunately, we've got a terrible situation that's evolved between Israel and Hamas. We have a continuing war so Russia and Ukraine that continues to grind on neither of those are good, and my heart goes out to all the people who are affected buy that, and just a bad bad situation. What becomes concerning is bad as it is today, does it have the potential either of them. And I would say for the moment, potentially, the Israel Hamas situation.I think, offers the greater uncertainty as to whether it will grow larger.

And I'm not going to try to anticipate that but if it were to grow larger and one of the focal areas in that part of the world becomes the strait of Hormuz and 20% of the world's oil flows through the Strait of Hormuz and if there should be some disruption.

Oil prices. I've been hovering below a hundred dollars a barrel but if there would be a disruption I've read from TD Economics and others you begin to think in terms of a significant escalation and significant. I would say the lower end would be a 20% increase in oil prices, pushing it up over a hundred $20 a barrel.

I hope that is not the case. I hope this is an idle conversation, and we make this an academic exercise. But if, in fact, there would be a significant escalation in oil prices that could change the outlook for next year, if there were some interruption not only increase, but interruption in oil flowing for the straight of our moves that could change the economic outlook.

Again, I hope none of those are the reality that we face but we're paying a great deal of attention. That is a real wild card to the present optimism. We have come down in 2024. I think I've had the question directed to me. If there would be some disruption in the oil, the Fed may have to change. It stands and move more aggressively to reduce rates quicker in order to stall the potential impact of that and avoid a recession but at the moment that is something we're watching and watching closely, and certainly hoping there's nothing of that nature that materializes.

Jack Hubbard 00:28:42

Yeah, it's fascinating, isn't it? How,  when you were a baby banker and I was a baby banker. You looked at financial statements, you just said, are they gonna pay me back, or are they not now? And as you've grown into a larger role at a larger bank, there's so many factors that come into this. And that's where you have to have a good analytical brain.

Well, one of the things I'd like to talk about going forward is a subject that a lot of bankers don't want to talk about, but it's one of the one of those elephants in the room, and that's commercial real estate.

You know, as these leases start coming due in the larger cities, there could be some challenges there, and I know you probably won't want to talk about anything specific, and I respect that. But in general, talk about commercial real estate, and where that's all headed.

Bill Fink 00:29:32

Well, I look at Jack. It is support. So let me. Anticipating this was a topic. It is important to our industry. and it's important not only to large banks, but small banks, so I could frame this a little bit. This data comes out of the current Federal Reserve, H. 8. Report, which has been around forever. So when you look at 2024 and beyond. And you look at where real estate fits in. So year to date C&I Loan Growth for small banks, and the Fed's definition of that is, everyone outside of the top 25. And so C&I Loan Growth this year was down 2.9%. for small banks and was down 13 basis points for the large banks and for the industry. The 2 numbers average out at 1.0 3, based on the holding size of the loans. 

When you look at commercial real estate. Commercial real estate for small banks again, everybody but the top 25 was up 9.1 4%. In 2023, and in the top 25. The large banks are down half a percent. So the industry average for real estate comes to be 5.94. But it's really concentrated as the engine for the small bank community. So when you talk about commercial real estate. I really believe this is where an analysis of the components really becomes critical. So what people begin to talk about when they talk about big cities is its office but I look at office as a component, warehouse is a component, multi-family is a component and single family is a component.

And if you take out a single family to get to the definition of commercial real estate, you get the first 3 as a general rule of thumb. And so I look at it. There's no question given the Admin technology and the effect of the pandemic that more people are working from home and are not in the office either at all or less frequently. Pardon me less frequently than they were prepared. There's no question about that, more, people are telecommuting or working in the office. So there's less need for central business district real estate than there was before.

And it is going to be a challenge of how that real estate is repurposed. and can it be used for housing? And that's easier said than done in some of the buildings, particularly ones that are not of recent finish to get utilities and subdivided, and that so commercial real estate, specifically in the office segment is an industry challenge and it will be for the next several years. When you look out on the horizon, the number of big office buildings that come up for maturity and to be renewed over the next 3 to 4 years is a significant problem by some estimates, and from data that I got from the Federal Reserve, St. Louis. That number depending on what year, if it's 3 years or 4 years, is 2 to 3 billion dollars in maturing loans.

So there's no question the industry is going to have to digest that we're going to have to dust off some habits we learned in 2,000 7, and in my case, and what I learned in you know, 1995 early in my career. When I wore a workout hat, we're gonna have to figure it out. How do we blend and extend? How do we extend? Get people more time to re-purpose? And it's going to be a new chapter and how we work through an industry challenge.

I look at residential real estate which has really been stymied because interest rates have been elevated now since March of last year, there's not a great deal of new construction that's gone on. So there are construction processes where permits were issued and construction financing was in place that's working its way through. But new construction because of increased interest. Rates have really diminished the amount of residential construction that's going on and multi-family construction that's going on. 

So as rates come down, there will be an opportunity there. Commercial space and particularly warehousing in commercial with the change in the retailing environment, more online sales. And that needs to be able to make that last mile connection for faster deliveries. That is, it continues to offer opportunity. But, Jack, it's not as robust as it was 3, 4 years ago. I think we've seen the peak in terms of retail sales growth and the need to have that warehousing space for, for instance, imminent or instant delivery. It will continue to grow repositioning, but it's not going to be the boom that it was. But we do look at it. 

There's opportunity in real estate as rates begin to come down, and that will just be, I'll say, resident to 2024. It'll happen in 2024,2025, 2026 and the fact that rates are coming down may offer, you know, a little bit of a lifeline in some cases to some of those loans that are maturing, but I don't want to mischaracterize it or give the audience a false sense. It's not the Savior. The banking industry is going to have to work through this issue of office real estate. And it's going to be a challenging chapter in our history.

Jack Hubbard 00:36:06

My daughter Erin, who you've met loves startup companies, and one of the ways startups get funded is through venture capital. Where do you see, given all the challenges economically. Where's the venture capital headed in 2024 and beyond?

Bill Fink 00:36:26

Well, I'll put that Jack in a little broader context. As you're aware, I write a piece quarterly which is a private equity market outlook and it's something I pay a great deal of attention to, because it's a focal piece for us. But to put it, where are we today? Overall? And you look at sponsor activity that includes venture capital. So private equity, sponsor, activity year to date and we won't get into the number of transactions, but the number of deals was down 28%. And the value of those deals is down, and I'm rounding up 25% but there is 1.4 trillion dollars in seed capital that private equity firms hold. and part of the dilemma that we've experienced in 2022 into 2023, and which has really caused that activity to halt is interest rates. 

So when you look at the cost of capital and the discount rate they have to apply as they look at opportunities. With interest rates significantly higher than they were in 2000 -2021.Deal activity has come to a real slowdown. and I stress it has come to a slowdown, but it hasn't stopped.I expect, as rates can begin to diminish, and you have continued better alignment between what buyers are willing to pay, and sellers are willing to accept, and we've had an improving but still imbalanced market for the last, I would say 1518 months, and you know no seller wants to sell at the bottom of the market, and no credible buyer experienced buyer wants to overpay, based on where earnings are projected to go. 

So you've had a cooling off period. If I can use that phrase, I fully expect, as rates begin to diminish, and there's better alignment between earnings, outlooks, and what buyers can determine is revenue, certainty, ebados, certainty, opportunity, certainty. As you look forward.

I almost always use it for a phrase that I've often heard. It's a coiled spring. And that spring is waiting to be let go in a very positive way. So the outlook is both for venture capital, the M&A market, deal activity in the private equity market is going to emerge and be positive. Later in 2024 into 2025, and if the outlook remains stable into 2026, and you know, why is that important? If you're a banker, and you look at how the world changes so much.

Private equity has always been an element. It's been in existence for 50, 60, 70 years. So it's not new. But when you look today, there are more privately held companies by private equity firms than there are public firms by a ratio depending on where you cut off 2 to 3 times. And so if you're a banker and you're looking for an opportunity, you want to be very much aware of what's going on in the private equity market, and what's emerging for opportunity there, whether it be refinance or M and a activity, and I pay tremendous attention to M&A activity as I write about has largely stalled, but it is not stalled in the add on market the average, the median deal size. I'll be specific. 

The median deal size in the M and a mark that says, now, 50 million dollars for an add on track transaction. That's certainly beyond the traditional small business market. But for middle market companies and larger companies that are looking for opportunity it offers a tremendous opportunity to go deeper in an industry to go into a new industry? In a way that you don't have to risk in many cases the amount of financing because of the amount of liquidity private equity firms have, and Us Corporations have by some estimates 4 trillion dollars is a number that comes up with regularity of cash on their balance sheets. They can digest those without needing financing or very little financing, so I expect very positive, both in the venture capital market over the next 12,18, 24 months, to re-emerge, as well as the private equity markets, and specifically in the M&A portion of that will re emerge very, very clearly.

Outro 41:45

Thanks for listening to this episode of Jack Rants with Modern Bankers with Bill Fink.
Part 2 of Bill’s comments can be heard at noon eastern time on January 3rd, 2024. This and every program is brought to you by our friends at RelPro and Vertical IQ. Join us next time for more special guests bringing you marketing sales and leadership insights, as well as lots of ideas that will provide your bank or credit union that competitive edge you need to succeed. 

This LinkedIn live show is also a podcast. Subscribe to get the latest Jack Rants With Modern Bankers and leave a review as well. We're on Apple podcasts, Spotify, Google Play, i-Heart and many others. Visit our website, the modernbanker.com and don't forget about, themodernbanker.com/publiclibrary. This public library is free, it has tremendous resources and you can get there at themodernbanker.com/publiclibrary. As I always say, at the end of each program, “Make today and every day a great client day!”