Season 2, Episode 2: James Robert Lay

Jack Hubbard: Banking, what a great industry. It's been at the heart of our economy since day one, fueling growth and helping America thrive. The bank of North America was our first bank, established by Robert Morris Way back in 1781. Over the years, banks have dotted our landscape in money centers and small towns, where community banks have been a great partner. They've helped businesses grow, become a vital part of the communities they serve, and make families feel secure. We've sure come a long way from those old school ledgers, and now we offer cutting edge technology solutions. Regardless of all these advancements, banking remains a people business. 

I've been in and around our industry for over 52 years, racking up over 5 million air miles and spreading, spreading the gospel of performance, culture, development, and trust based sales conversations. I've had the unique privilege to train and coach over 80,000 bankers, speak at state and national banking conferences in 49 states, and teach at 13 of the nation's preeminent banking schools. Along the way, I've made countless friends. Now, as a cancer survivor, it's time for me to give back. One way I'm paying it forward is through this program, Jack Rants with Modern Bankers.

Welcome to Jack Rants with Modern Bankers. I'm Jack Hubbard, chief experience officer of The Modern Banker. Every week, I feature special guests on this program to help you, help you improve your sales efforts and your marketing approach, too, your performance culture and your bottom line. It's all brought to you by our great friends at RelPro and Vertical IQ. Husband, father, digital anthropologist, entrepreneur award.

Jack Hubbard: A winning speaker, bestselling author, podcaster. My special guest this week, James Robert Lay. He's been called all these things, and he does them all in a world class way. James Robert earned a B's and an MBA from the University of Houston. He is the CEO of the Digital Growth Institute, whose mission is to simplify digital marketing and banks and credit unions. With numerous accolades under his belt, he's a force in the financial services space. He's a two time bestselling author as well. With banking on digital growth, his first book and his newest, banking on change, a fascinating book on business and life. It's James Robert lay on Jack rants with Modern Bankers.

Jack Hubbard: Here we go.

So, last year, when I started the program, in August of 2023, I thought, who can kick this off with, who's absolutely the best in the world at something? Who could kick it off to help my audience, help themselves and help their customers? And the answer was clear for me. It's my guest today, James Robert Lay. James Robert so great to have you back on the program.

Jack Hubbard: It is so great to be back and share time and space with you.

Jack Hubbard: So you write this first book, banking on digital growth, and it was a worldwide bestseller, now it's banking on change. Here it is. It's an amazing book. I know it's a bestseller, people are talking about it all over the place and I want to talk about the book, but it's been twelve months since we've really talked. I mean, we talk online and virtually and things like that, but there's been a lot of changes, at your organization, talk about the digital growth institute and all the things that have happened in the last twelve months to help you help your clients.

James Robert Lay: There has been a lot of change and a lot of it is because I live what I wrote about in banking on change. the market has changed, problems have changed, the problems that financial brands are working to solve. And so I just went and just talked and listened. I didn't even talk, I asked questions and I listened to what were the problems, what was, what was keeping financial brand leaders up at night. and also then talking to clients that we helped over the years, some six months, some, we've been working with for six years, and it became very clear as to what was creating the greatest value for them. 

And so we went in and we really redeveloped everything, and I would say even simplified, we stripped away everything that was noise to focus on the few things that would help and create the greatest value for the many. And the number one thing that kept coming up through the conversations time and time again, both from clients that we had worked with, but also others that we had not worked with. But they kept saying, we just have this problem with our website, we know it's important, we know that it's going to help us grow, but we're just not exactly sure what we need to do next. and I said, well, have you ever secret shopped your website? That's an interesting question. and what we're finding is about 85 86% of financial brands have never secret shopped their website. And that was the number one thing that came up time and time again with those that we've worked with, that it created the greatest value. And then the question, well, why? Because you helped us see what we, what we couldn't see. You helped us gain perspective into how others are perceiving our brand or perceiving our experience. And so I'm like, let's, hm, do more of that.

Jack Hubbard: So shopping the website, talk about, talk about that methodology. What does that really mean?

James Robert Lay: Well, it's fun because we're just the facilitator. It's not our opinions, it's the opinion of the ideal account holder or the ideal member. And so, for example, we ask a financial brand, what's your primary product line that would create the greatest amount of growth for you? Or what's your primary product line more so where you're experiencing the greatest amount of loss, where are you losing loans, where are you losing deposits? And that tends to be where we start is to help recapture that lost opportunity. And so when we identify what that product line is, the follow up to that is, well, who is your ideal account holder? And then we go out and we recruit around that ideal account holder with demographic data. And then we will guide those ideal account holders through a shopping experience. 

And so we frame the experience. You just moved to this community and you know that you want to open up an account locally. And so when you're looking online, you come across community institutions' websites. how does it make you feel based upon what you see on the homepage? Do you feel like you can trust this organization? And then we guide them through a series of steps to the product. So for example, it might be to the checking page. What do you see on the checking page? Does it make you feel clear? Does it make you feel confident about moving forward with this institution? Or where might you feel confused? Where might you feel frustrated? What do you feel is missing on this page that can make your buying decision that much better? And so we gain all of that perspective on that particular institution, and then we take them off to another organization, we might take them to a national brand, we might take them to a fintech company. 

So now you have a comparison, and then that's where the gaps really start to become, apparently into what makes them feel good on the other brands digital shopping experience. And based upon that knowledge, then it's like, what can we do to close the gaps for this particular community institution? And so at the end of this study, we have about anywhere between 150 to 200 minutes worth of recorded experience that we're then pattern matching across. Okay, here are the three things that you can do over the next 90 days. Quick wins. And here's what you can look at over the next six to nine to twelve months. That might take a little bit longer, but if you do these things, it would really help you stop losing loans and deposits.

Jack Hubbard: Action. That's one of the things I've always loved about your company. It's not just theoretical, you get the research and then you say, okay, here's some things that you can go about doing. You do that for an individual bank.

But the other thing that you've done over the past twelve months is something for everybody in financial services, and that's the digital growth community. I'm a member. Talk about that. And what was the inspiration for that and what is it all about?

James Robert Lay:  The digital growth community was built to bring growth minded marketing, sales, leadership, team members together to connect, to learn, to grow, to just level up, to be even better. And so over the last year or so, we have grown membership. Now we're pushing 400 members. it's an open community, meaning that there's not a membership fee. Although one of the things that we are looking at, we're exploring, we're getting some feedback into how we can create more value. And so we're looking at a potential paid member option that would package up our digital growth university, so that you can continue to increase your knowledge, bring your team through the university. but I just, it's funny you bring up the community.

00:10:00

Jack Hubbard: I had just finished up a roundtable right before I hopped onto this conversation with you. And the connections that I'm helping to make and to facilitate it, it is what inspires action, because it shows and it helps people understand and helps leaders understand. They're not alone. We're all working to be even better together. I don't have all the answers. Someone who joins doesn't have all the answers, but I guarantee you can find the answers to questions that you can have when you're joining. And I've had this own personal experience myself being involved in other entrepreneurial communities. And so based upon my experience, I said, hm, how can this help create value for this particular vertical here within financial services?

James Robert Lay:  It's just really an amazing experience. And one of the things I like about it is, I even got an email just before we started recording from the community asking a particular question. That's tremendous, tremendous value.

Jack Hubbard: So I get the book, and I'm reading it, I put it down, my wife says, you know, what are you reading? I said, oh, banking on change, it's a great book from James Robert lay. And she starts reading it, she goes, you know, this isn't a book about banking, it's a book about life. And it was like, oh, there's a light bulb moment that went off. It indeed is. What was the thought process behind writing this book?

James Robert Lay: It's interesting that your wife shared that experience, it's not a book about banking. It's a book about life. That's the heart of the book. This book is about exponential growth. And exponential growth, as I define in the book, is when an individual or team or an organization has the perception that they're growing personally and professionally at the same exact time. Through just observation, particularly post Covid 2020 and beyond, it started to become clear to me through my work in financial services that when an individual feels like they're growing personally, they're probably going to be growing professionally. And when they feel like they're growing professionally, they're also going to be growing personally. 

On the alternative side, when they're struggling personally, they're going to be struggling professionally. When they're struggling professionally, they're going to be struggling personally. It's hard to separate the two now in the world that we live in. And so the idea of, quote, unquote, what the historical context of work life balance is, I think we're moving beyond work life balance and now really merging work life integration. And so to your point, to your wife's point, this is a book about life, and it's a book about continuous growth. We are in a period of exponential change, and that doesn't mean that we can stop growing. In fact, we probably are going to have to grow at an exceedingly faster pace, which I know for many in this particular vertical can feel like a very scary proposition right now.

Jack Hubbard: Yeah, it is interesting. And one of the things I really like, too, about the book is that it's in three parts. You, you. This is a tutorial. It's a roadmap. You've got three parts. Talk about the three parts and why you did it that way.

James Robert Lay: Part number one is the narrative, call it the hero's journey. I really want someone who reads this book to feel like they're the hero. They're the hero on their exponential growth journey, where they have the potential to grow personally and professionally at the same time. As a result, if they're a leader, they can help others on their team have that same feeling that they're growing personally and professionally. Because when the individual is transforming, the team is going to transform. Because the team is made up of individuals. We, ah, move from the narrative structure that we'll call it the philosophy. and then we're going to get more practical in the middle of the book. and that is looking at particular strategies that are easy to apply, ah, tactics that are easy to apply in the middle of the book.

One of my personal favorites is chapter six, which is about digital stoicism, and it's re examining the relationships that we have with our digital devices. I share a lot of my own personal story, my own personal narrative, and I have struggled. I have struggled as a digital anthropologist, one who works at the intersection of marketing, sales, technology, and human behavior. For the past 21 years, I have struggled with digital addiction. And so I have had to uninstall email, from my phone, uninstall social media from my phone, even uninstall my web browser from my phone and have my wife lock me out. Because my phone was running my life. I was not managing my phone. My phone was managing me. So now I have essentially a dumb smartphone, which has improved the quality of relationships, both personally as well as professionally. 

And then the last half of the book, or the third section, is, it's the framework, it's the 90 day growth method of navigating through what I call the four seasons of growth, of learning, thinking, doing, and reviewing and navigating through these four seasons every now 90 days, because it's when we make that journey, and we look back, that's where we're going to experience the greatest growth, because we're going to experience the greatest progress.

Jack Hubbard: Awesome. Throughout the book, you talk about digitization, and obviously, with your organization and your tremendous experience digital and where banking is headed is you're positioned perfectly in the industry. But one of the things I've always noticed about you is you talk about the power of human interaction with the digitization. Talk about that a little bit. Things like chat, GPT, and other AI kinds of things. How do we blend those two together?

James Robert Lay: Ah, the human experience is something that's never going to go out of style. I actually have a very strong hypothesis that as we move further into the age of AI, we're going to see the pendulum swing. Let's just call it away from team tech to where organizations have been thinking a lot about technology. it reached its pinnacle, 2021. We're going to start seeing the pendulums, start swinging back to team humanity. And that doesn't mean that technology is going away. It doesn't mean that AI is not important. It's the emphasis of which we place our focus. because I think a lot of technology and the conversation around technology has been for technology's sake, it hasn't necessarily been of how can this technology deepen the relationships that we have, in a way, particularly with banking, maybe it has, but I think we've lost the meaning in all of it, because banking is still a very relationship driven experience, particularly for the complex journeys of, say, buying a home or the SMB side of things. 

One of the greatest opportunities to deepen human connection. and I'm looking at it and exploring a potential business opportunity with this is just simply having conversations. Having conversations like, let's say you're an SMB lender and having conversations with other entrepreneurs in the communities that you're helping. Well, you can now capture and record those conversations and those conversations because they've been captured and recorded. You get video out of it, you get audio out of it, you get a transcript out of it. 

Well, the big concern is, well, I don't have time, I don't have time to manage all of that. Well, all you have to do is just have the conversation, ask the good questions, because you're going to be learning through the eyes of the entrepreneur. they're going to be learning from you based upon your experience, and you're going to leave that conversation different. You can now take that conversation, package it up in a multitude of different ways. 

A podcast, a video on LinkedIn, a LinkedIn post. But it doesn't necessarily mean that you're actually having to write any of that, because through the training of an AI model, through your own GPT, for that matter, you're able to then transcribe, take the transcription, and compose a LinkedIn post. Sounds like you, but you didn't necessarily write it. It might have got the 80% for you to where you still have to oversight and approve it, just like you would any type of other writer than yourself. But it allows you to multiply your time, it allows you to multiply your relationships, and that is going to be the most important part of any experience, is the relationship. It is the human connection which cannot be made artificial by any manner.

Jack Hubbard: And there's a lot of marketing people who are listening to this and saying amen. There are a lot of business bankers and small business bankers who are going, this is absolutely great, but my bank does not allow me to use this methodology. What are you seeing in banking? Are we starting to loosen this engine up a little bit or are we still kind of holding back for whatever reason?

James Robert Lay: I'd like to say its being loosened up, just through some recent experiences and leading team alignment workshops as part of the banking on digital growth program. Even about two and a half years since the mass adoption of AI at a macro level, because that was November 30, 2022, when Chat GPT came out and went from zero to 100 million users in just two months, through the context and through the lens of banking and financial services, anecdotally, I'd say when I run and facilitate team alignment workshops, about 70% of financial brand leaders, 60%, 70% have not used a GPT or used an AI model, large language model. maybe 20% have. 

They've dabbled. Five to 10% are actually actively using it in their day to day, and a lot of it is because this is going to require a reframe of operations, it's going to require a reframe of mindsets, even the five to 10% who are using it actively, or maybe the 20% to 30% who have dabbled with it. When we dive deeper into their contextual experience, it has been, they've used a GPT very similar to how they would have used Google back in 1994. and if you think about, like, 1994, that was the year the Internet reached the mass consciousness of humanity, and that required a transformation of behavior, because the idea of, quote unquote, googling something back in 1994 was very foreign. So that was a skill set, that was a capability that had to be learned. 

I mean, even to this day, my wife is the one who's asked me to google things for her, because she knows, like today she called, she said, I need you to stalk someone for me. I said, excuse me? She said, I need you to find an address for someone that we need to send a thank you note to. Better put, 20 seconds. It would have taken her minutes to find, because it's, I know the right questions to ask, and that's the capability that's even more so needed when working with an AI, like a GPT. it's not googling. It's literally having a conversation, a dialogue, a discussion, a discourse, because the better questions that you ask, the better the output's going to be. And I know I've heard, had bankers. Oh, I played with it, but I didn't like what it said. Did you ask it another question? Did you ask for a follow up? Did you ask it to clarify? No, I never thought that. I said, think of it like you're having a conversation with another person. And that's, once again, though, that's where people get very uncomfortable in transforming their behavior, because to transform their behavior, you have to now transform belief.

Jack Hubbard: Yeah. as you know, we're building a house, and so the contractor and my wife were kind of sitting here one day, and every Friday we meet with the contractor, and they were talking about the kitchen, which is obviously a very important room in the house, and they were struggling to figure out some side panels and such. So I said, I'll be back in a couple of minutes. So I went to chat with GPT four, and I said, you know, and I had some questions. And the first thing that Dali did, the graphics thing, wasn't exactly what I wanted. And so I got deeper and deeper and deeper, and I printed it out. My wife goes, how'd you do this? And the contractor goes, I'm going to be out of business. Well, the answer is, I did it in 5 seconds, because technology helped me, and you're not going to go out of business, because now you're going to take some of this and put it into the format that allows people to actually build it. I just, I don't get it. I'm 74 and I still love doing it. and hopefully we'll get to the point where bank CEO's say to their bankers, I will allow this, we'll figure out how to put some bumpers around privacy and risk and regulation, and we'll be able to make this happen.

James Robert Lay: Yeah, I think your builder, that, that frame, that perspective, which is the, which is perspective is the sum of context and framing. That's his perspective, that's his belief. And once again, belief is going to drive behavior. So if his belief is, oh, my gosh, this is going to put me out of business.

That's the four fires of fear that I write about in banking on change. It's fear of the unknown, it's fear of change, it's fear of failure. And then in some cases, it's also fear of success. And when we fear something, we tend to run away from it. I'm advocating, if you fear something, it's okay. We need to honor that emotive state. But let's be curious about it. Why? What are you so fearful about? Because we know, and, there's actually some science that backs us up. 

And I forget the university that did the research, but we've heard the acronym fear is false evidence appearing real. but there's the science that backs that up, that I want to say it's around 80, 85%. And if you want the data point on this, dm me on LinkedIn and I'll send it to you, because it was fascinating. It's like, We know the anecdote of false evidence appearing real, but around 80, 85% of what we fear truly, truly never ever materializes. And for about 50% of those that the fear actually materializes for it's either a not as bad as we thought it was going to be, or it was a learning experience that helped us to actually grow and level up. Wow.

Jack Hubbard: fabulous. So, I never do math. I always tell people, I thought there was no math involved, but I got to give you a formula. That's so cool. Ex plus hx equals exponential growth. Now, that would have been brilliant if I discovered it. I didn't. You did talk about that amazing formula. And how do cultures bring that formula to life, Trey?

James Robert Lay: Well, this came as a follow up to. We'll call this the. This is the second iteration of the. Of the growth formula, because in banking on digital growth, I proposed that DX plus Hx equals growth, meaning a positive digital experience when combined with a positive human experience as a path towards. Towards growth. And then Covid happened. And I saw very, very quickly through the work that I do how important the ex is, the employee experience, particularly when navigating the complexity of tough and turbulent times, such as those that we are in right now. the employee experience is the foundation. It's the base. 

Just, you're. You're building a house, right? Without a strong foundation, that house is going to crumble and fall. Without a positive employee experience, all other experiences could crumble and fall. And so all change, all transformation that leads to future growth, it starts within. It does start with the individual and then moves to the team. Teams are made up of individuals. It moves from the team to the rest of the organization. But I've observed, particularly when it comes to technology rollouts and implementations, that change in transformation tends to transpire from the top and work its way down into the individuals. and then the individual is left wondering, what. What. What's going on? Why are we doing this? How will this impact me? And so a positive employee experience is what leads to a positive human experience. And the human experience doesn't necessarily mean face to face. Human experience doesn't necessarily have to happen within the physical world of a branch. Human experience can also happen through the digital experience. Digital experience could be on the website. Digital experience could be through social media. I know you use LinkedIn a lot. That is a human experience right there. Human experience could happen through chat, video, podcasts. I mean, when you get into the digital experience, that becomes an exponential multiplier of the human experience. The human experience doesn't matter if there's not a positive employee experience to begin with in the first place. Great.

Jack Hubbard: So I want to dive into chapter one with you. You talk, you have a lot of acronyms which I really like because I can remember stuff that way. You talk about the care acronym in chapter one. What is care? And how can this all be implemented in real life?

James Robert Lay: It's funny you talk about the acronyms. That was the whole reason that there are acronyms. And someone left a moderate review on Amazon calling out the acronyms. And I appreciated the honesty and, but acronyms run wild in digital growtopia because it's the only way that I can actually remember stuff and then go teach other people. So, care is committing to a cause. The sea. Commit to a cause that's bigger, greater than the individual self or the organizations, bigger than the present moment. Ah, anytime that we're working towards a cause, we can do things that we thought were once not possible. And the best way to commit to a cause greater than the present moment connects back to something I share a little bit later on in the book, which is to identify the VM PVm. it's a strategic model that expands upon what financial brains traditionally have, which is around mission, vision, and values.

Let's come back to committing to a cause grid in the present moment. Let's just start with the v. What's, the v in the VMP Vue model, it's the villain. Identify a villain that your organization can make a commitment to defeat to help others. There's nothing greater that brings people together than to fight a common villain, a common enemy. And, in financial services, that might be financial stress. That's taking a toll on people. That toll takes it. That toll of financial stress impacts their health, their relationships, their well being. That villain might be limiting the mindsets and beliefs that entrepreneurs have. 

So you could help those entrepreneurs and overcome those limiting mindsets and beliefs to help them grow their business. But when there's a villain involved, that's where we commit to a cause greater than the present moment, which then leads us to an adaptation. it's to adapt our beliefs, to adapt our behavior, to then fight the good fight. And AQ adaptability quotient is a key measurement for individuals and teams. We now have the ability to measure AQ just like we could measure IQ, just like we can measure Eq. And because AQ can be measured, we can benchmark it, we can coach against it. Adaptability is a key capability in tough and turbulent times, but also in the age of AI. And as a fun side anecdote, I, want to ask you, you want to increase your AQ, like tonight?

Jack Hubbard: Yes.

James Robert Lay: So you want to increase it. I know a lot of people want to increase it. When I ask them the question. Question is, is you got to take, you're going to do the work to increase your AQ. The fastest way to increase your AQ, it's scientifically improved, proven, is to take a cold shower. It's cold therapy, it's cold plunge, because you're forcing your body into a stressful situation that does not feel good. But then you're increasing the resiliency of your mind to adapt to that stressful environment, to adapt to that stressful situation, which is the r in the care acronym. It's the resiliency because if you're going to adapt your behavior, you're going to have to increase your resiliency, which requires you to be disciplined, to do difficult things, to do tough things, which then leads to the e. It's energy. It's like, how are you managing your energy? Because energy is finite. You're going to have to recharge. attention is going to go, and energy is going to flow where your attention goes. It's like, what are you focusing on right now? And in tough and turbulent times, you know, you want to ensure that you're surrounding yourself with positive people. It's not rose colored glasses, but are you looking through the good and all the experiences that you have? Even if they're tough experiences, what are you able to take from those experiences to be even better on the next round, on the next iteration of learning.

Jack Hubbard: So you and I both know, and we've experienced it, we go into an organization, there's a lot of enthusiasm, there's excitement, there's, even though it's scary, people are going, we can do this, and then we leave. You talk about transcending the territory of transformation. To me, that's obstacles, common obstacles that when you and I leave, things kind of get in the way. What have you found around these obstacles, and how have you helped organizations get around it?

James Robert Lay: The biggest obstacle connects back to the four steps for human transformation. And you're right. We go to work. The work I do, a lot of times it helps people see things from a different perspective. And that's great. That's fantastic. It means we did our job. But seeing is just the first step in human transformation. The second step of human transformation is to get the thought patterns to transform. So you're going to see something different. And when you start to see things differently and you begin to think differently, you know you're on the right path. And a lot of times, they'll leave it to experience a workshop that you might facilitate, or I facilitate a class, a lecture, and they are thinking differently. Great. 

And it's interesting because I've asked this question thousands of times, whether that be in private conversations or in workshops, with leadership teams and boards, like, are we on the same page? Are we tracking? We speak in the same language. What do you mean? I said, when you see something different, you're going to think differently. Yeah, yeah. Great. We're tracking. Good. So what happens next? And so I say, well, when you see something different and you think different, as it sounds like we're all on the same page, as it sounds like you are right now. Yes, we are. Then what are you going to do next? 

And then there's this, like, awkward silence. Someone has the courage to raise their hand, and it's almost like they answer the question, act different, be different, do different. I go, you're on the right path, which is good. So their response, their belief, once again, is they're going to see different, they're going to think different, and as a result, they're going to act, be, do different. And that's the danger. That's the biggest obstacle right there, because there's the third step in human transformation that they have completely missed, and the third step that bridges the gap. 

There's a gap between thought and action. Oftentimes, the third step is to feel different, because the desire, the feeling, the emotion to act and be different has to be greater, and in many cases, exponentially greater than the desire, the feeling, the emotion to remain the same in the status quo. And when you talk about feelings and emotions, that's where people start to feel a little bit uncomfortable. And that's okay, because growth never happens in the comfort zone. You want to feel a little bit uncomfortable because you know you're actually on the path to human transformation. You know you're on the path to growth when you have that little level of discomfort. But when you start to feel uncomfortable, you tend to fall back onto what you know, onto what you believe to be true. And so to bridge the gap between thought and action, it does come down to feeling and emotion.

But we have to be careful because I think you use the word, you motivate, or, you inspire. That's great. You and I can motivate, inspire all day long. But motivation is like a muscle. It is going to eventually tire and fatigue. Inspiration is like a light or a candle. It's eventually going to burn out or dim. And so when we're mindful of the emotive state for ourselves or for our teams. Navigating human transformation. How do we keep people moving forward when they want to go back into the cave of complacency?

One thing it is coaching, because coaching helps guide people beyond the place that they're at, beyond the place that they know to help them go to the place where they will grow.

Jack Hubbard: Yes. And why don't we. Why don't bankers do a better job of coaching? What are you finding in your work?

James Robert Lay: I think there's some fear of getting real, having real conversations, of going beyond the surface level of being vulnerable and saying, you know what? I don't know. Or raising a hand saying, I need some help. I will tell you about my personal experience. It's like, that was me in 2012, thinking I knew it all back then. And there's some youthful pride and arrogance definitely tied to that. But I am so thankful for my wife, who has been my helpful guide. Although she's not always empathetic, she is my coach to a degree. but the thing is, a lot of times, I don't listen to her. Actually, I am glad I listened to her back in 2012, because she came to me and said, it's the business or the family. You need to make a choice. And she was dead serious about that. If things were not going to change immediately, then she was going to be gone. And we had just had our second child six, months before. And I called it an outside perspective. I called in David Baker, who had worked with other firms like mine, and he came in, gave me some recommendations, and immediately took action on it because I knew the consequences. I knew that if I. If I failed to change, I knew what the consequences were going to be, and I did not like those consequences. and so a lot of it gets back to a lot of the theories I read in the book. It's, we're more likely to. 

To take action to avoid a loss than we are to achieve a gain. And so I don't want to lose my family, I don't want to lose my wife, I don't lose my kids, but I also wanted to grow the business in a way that I could be a better husband, I could be a better father, I could be a better entrepreneur. I just didn't know how. So, that was when I got into coaching programs myself and got into therapy and started working with, marriage counselor, because there are so many things I didn't even see about myself. 

Once again, the first step of human transformation. I didn't see all these blind spots that were just blatantly obvious to other people, but I just could not see within myself. And so I think that's what holds so many bankers back, is having to do some of this deeper work. and I have, in certain cases, really recommended, think you need to go see a therapist, or I think you need to go see a counselor because you have the self limiting, the belief that I can't help you with. I see it, but I can't help you do that deeper work because that's where the real transformation, that's where the real growth happens. But I can tell you, being involved in entrepreneurial coaching programs for myself, I'm by far not the smartest person in the room. I would rather be the dumbest person in the room because I know that there's still so much to learn from other people just like you. I mean, just, you know, I'm continuously learning from you, just being honest, being vulnerable, like, hey, this is where I'm at, this is what I'm experiencing. Even before you hit the record button, you helped reframe a few things for me. So I'm so grateful for that because that's how we all get better together.

Jack Hubbard: That's absolutely right. And I hadn't planned to ask you this question, but you brought it up, so I'm going to do it. But the whole first part of this book is really about your personal vulnerability. that took a lot of courage to be able to do that. Why? Why did you, why did you open yourself up like that?

James Robert Lay: Because personal experience, and this is just my experience, this is my perspective that I got to a point to just accepting everything that had happened and to take some challenging experiences and situations, whether that was the 2012 experience with my wife, or being diagnosed with an autoimmune condition, accepting it and then using that as a way to say, you know what? That doesn't define who I am. In fact, those experiences, as painful as they were at that time, can be teaching experiences for others. I think when you realize we are all flawed, struggling human beings and we're truthful, I said before, all transformation starts with them, but all transformation that leads to future growth, it starts by telling the truth about where you've been and where you are and where you could go next. Sometimes the hardest person to tell the truth to is yourself. The person looking back at you in the mirror. And if you're lying to yourself, probably lying to other people, as I was. Actually, I was a big liar back in the day. Didn't know it. But now it's like, you know what? I'm just going to be truthful in every conversation that starts the conversation I have with myself every single morning when I wake up.

Jeff Wow.

Jack Hubbard: I got to have more conversations with James Robert lay. I got to get to know him a little bit more. There are a lot of ways to do that. Your new website is phenomenal and your podcast is awesome. Talk about ways that people can see you beyond what we're doing here today. And if they are interested in all of the great things that you do, how do they get a hold of you?

James Robert Lay: Well, the easiest way is just to google me. James Robert Lay, you, can go to www.jamesrobertlay.com, which is kind of an overview of the macro level of me. you've got www.digitalgrowth.com, which is the work that I do, www.bankingonchange.com, which is the book we're talking about today. But to be honest with you, the best, the easiest way to get a hold of me is connect with me on LinkedIn.

Jack Hubbard: Send me a DM or just send me a text 832-549-5792 and, let's just continue the dialogue to discussion. That's, that's the, that's why I do what I do. It's just the human connection, the human experience, just as we're talking about here.

James Robert Lay: Today, Jack, you got to do that and you'll get an answer. I'll tell you a quick story on James Roberts. So, a banker reached out to me with a question I couldn't answer. I reached out to James Robert, and he wrote several paragraphs of very, very practical ideas. So he's a giver, and that's important. The other thing you need to know is his podcast is in the top one or 2% of podcasts in the world on banking related issues. So you need to check that out and you need to buy this book. I was so lucky to be included in the liner notes on the back cover, which is awesome. And on the inside, congratulations, James Robert, on this book, and thank you so much for all you do for banking and for being on the show today. Jack, thank you so much for having me back.

Jack Hubbard: As always, thanks for listening to this. Episode of Jack Rants with Modern Bankers with my very special guest, James Robert Lay. Next week, I talked with a good friend. for a long, long time and.  A bank CEO who always puts the we in community banking. Alice Frazier, president and CEO of banking Charlestown, needs some practical ideas and resources around blending LinkedIn into the sales process. Well, you can find them at themodernbanker.com. subscribe to this podcast there. It's been downloaded over 50,000 times. Follow us on YouTube and join that free public library, too. Now the library has replays of all my shows, all the Jackra with Brin and more than 40,000 ebooks, just to name a few. Big thanks, as always, for sponsoring our programs. Jack Rants with Brynne and Jack Rants with Modern Banker. To our great friends at Vertical IQ and RelPro. It's September, 2024, and it's a great month to make today and every day a great client day.