Episode 45: Ned Miller

Jack Hubbard 00:01

So, as I mentioned in the interview, Ned is one of our 3 amigos. A couple of years ago, I think, during the pandemic, he and Nick Miller (no relation.) And I did a program. And it was really fun. And I, as I mentioned again in the intro. Ned and Nick are cooperatives, we've always competed, we're always professional but when there's something that we can't do comes around I'll refer it over to Ned and Nick, and they do the same thing. So, Ned, great to see you.

Ned Miller 00:35

Great to be with you, Jack.

Jack Hubbard 00:37

So you've seen my programs. And by the way, Ned was significant in getting Tom Morris to me,  who was one of my best podcasts. And so I really really appreciate that. So you've seen my programs. And so one of the things I always love to start out with is, tell me something good. And this is in the context of Happy New Year to you. It's 2024. It's our first program of the

year. So tell me something good that's gonna happen in 2024, Ned.

Ned Miller 01:08

I think there are a lot of good things that are gonna happen in 2024 for bankers. One of the things that I'm seeing, and I know that you're seeing it as well, is that some of the people who might have been described as middle managers are getting tabbed to move into senior roles, some in their own organizations, but others moving to other banks. And I think it's an interesting time for me in part, because there's a lot of uncertainty. And there's a lot of change. And you know, 2024 for sure is gonna include some of that. You know for some it's a challenging time. You know, I get text messages from people and I got one this morning from. I guess it's tough.

We're not lending very much. He, curiously enough, or coincidentally, he just lost a senior pro middle market manager. We have all kinds of potential.

But, on the other hand, I got a note from the CEO saying, we're seeing lots of opportunity, because a lot of people are in defensive mode. We know that's going on. They've been in the broader macro environment. There are headwinds. This is a difficult time in a lot of respects. But I think when there's change, there's an opportunity. And I see a lot of interesting things going on, and we’ll get into some of them. But I think there's where people are moving and moving for the right reasons, greater opportunity to learn and a chance to take on a bigger role. It's a great time for people like you, who really strive to educate people in so many different ways. I love all the work you've done for banking schools. I think this podcast is phenomenal. I hope people take advantage of it because some of the guests you have helped people realize what's changing out there.

Last year you had Jeff Marsico, you know, great insights into the banking industry. You had my friend Tom Morris, who has helped people through the years with change, and one of the books that has just been reissued by we may talk about what's on our reading list. But he wrote another edition, or revised the art of achievement which is an important thing for any of the people who are moving into leadership to think about, “How do you become successful? And how do you make others successful?” So I know that's sort of a rambling introduction to 2024.

Jack Hubbard 03:31

Well, you're right, and you and I both are pretty avid readers. I know you read a lot about what Dave Brock talks about who's Who's terrific, and Tom Morris book, True Success is something I refer to. I refer to it quite often. So I agree with you. I think 2024 is gonna be a very interesting year, and in some cases not so good but in some cases really good. One of the things that we were talking about before we started recording was college. I'm just curious, Ned, How do we make the industry that we love? I mean, you and I have both grown up in this industry. How do we make it more exciting for college students coming out that say, you know, banking is a really good career for me.

Ned Miller 04:01

I think we have to work on it. There are some things that people are doing. One of the trade associations that you're familiar with, and that I'm familiar with is the Risk Management Association. And they've been doing this for years through scholarships. So local RMA chapters can actually give students a chance to reduce some of their tuition bills. But I think it's gonna be an effort of a lot of leaders in banks of all sizes who have to go out and think about the recruiting funnel a little bit differently. I don't know about you, Jack, but I'm pretty down on the old model of finding an experienced banker probably trained by some bigger bank, hire them, and they'll bring over business. And you know, in my estimation, if you're a Community Bank, CEO, and have tried that. You probably discovered that doesn't work very well. 

One. It may be difficult to afford some of these people, although that shouldn't be the major consideration. 2. They may not exactly have the skill set that you need, particularly if you need somebody who, for example, has to function in a very different environment, where resources are, if not different, they're certainly different. They're constrained. And so you think about that. And then you think about the cultural fit. How's this person gonna integrate into our culture? So I think one of the challenges. And this is one of the things that I think is really interesting that's going on is trying to get to students sooner to try to create opportunities for them. 

We all know that kids are into internships. By the way, I'm into paid internships. I think anybody that expects to get labor for nothing is probably not somebody you wanna work for. But the idea of going and attracting them really and I'll give you an insight. The Vanguard Group, which is a close neighbor of mine, has done this for years. They've targeted college students, but they're making a particular push in the historically black colleges in universities to attract people who are gonna go into sales, and they're targeting early or trying to catch them as soon as they can.

I’ll give you another glimpse. I'm very intrigued by an organization called Career Wise and I don't know whether others are familiar with it but it was one that I learned about through a client of mine, and I saw that on Linkedin, which is an interesting place for news, as you know, they were touting an apprentice that had been working for the bank, and I went. Whoa! Time out apprentices. No, they work in the trades. Not so much anymore. 

Career Wise focus is on national youth apprenticeships, and they started in Colorado under the then Governor, now, Senator John Hickenlooper and they've been up and running for about 6 years, and they've focused on all kinds of businesses, including banks. And so just in October of this year they had a major conference on national youth apprenticeships. And one of the keynote speakers was Jamie Diamond who basically said, this is important, and it works. And it's because Jp. Morgan Chase is experimenting with high school apprentices.

Now, there are a lot of issues associated with it. But that's partly because we have to find people sooner and we have to find the right paths for them and some of these high school age kids, and I know Jack, you've got some grandkids. I don't know whether they're as smart as my 3 year old granddaughter and her 6 month old sister but the idea that there's some smart kids and we have to figure out ways to bring them into the full. Because I think there's some great opportunities in the financial services industry specifically in banking because of the demographics that we're living with now.

A lot of aging folks, people aging out. There's a whole… I know that it was when banking wasn't so cool. But there's a lot you can do if you're smart and since when I come back to community banks they ought to find them young whether it's maybe high schools too too early for some folks, maybe colleges too early, but you gotta get them early and you gotta train them up and you gotta you gotta make a bet that if you get 2 for the price of a mediocre commercial banker with tenure you might actually come out much farther ahead in the long run.

Jack Hubbard 08:46

I think that's right. And you mentioned commercial banking, and I'd love to pick at what you're seeing and what you do see for 2024 around sales in commercial banking. I've got a bank that I work with. That was telling me when I started with them. Okay, our branch managers are calling on customers that want these kinds of loans. And then our middle market bankers are calling on these kinds of loans. And I said, "We need to stop worrying about loans, and we need to start worrying about good customers.”

So I changed them over into revenue size branch managers, a million dollars, the commercial bankers 5 million. And up there's that banking in the middle. And one of the things they're considering is a business banking initiative to kind of capture that cause that's where a lot of companies are. Where do you see sales going in that whole space, Ned in 2024?

Ned Miller 09:47

Well, I think you're right in helping organizations. Think not about products, but think about how you know how you build a relationship. And for most of the people that I've been talking to for the last couple of months. Anyway, it still will be a relationship. A lot of them focused on businesses that might benefit from depository to services cash management. I think that the year ahead is actually going to be an interesting one in that I think bankers are going to come before and in some respects branch managers are good people if they are given the right kind of direction and guidance about who to call on. That's important, and given the right kind of coaching about the kind of conversations they have to have. I think the issue with this sort of hole between where the branches play and where the commercial bankers play has to get somehow resolved with. This is how we play. I think if you look at most of the customers, the commercial customers are the typical Community bank, you know, 45, 50% of them fall in what you and I might define as business banking.

And business banking for a large organization can have a rather elastic definition, but usually it's sale size, and the degree of complexity. But if you look at that space and you think, how can we help the owners of businesses? Now you and I can relate very well to boomers. Some of them are still active in their businesses, some who are thinking about transitioning their businesses, which is a big potential topic of conversation, because, historically, bankers haven't engaged

on that topic as they might have just to inquire and help people think about this issue. But then you think about whether you know the millennials, and even if you know the people younger than them who are business owners who are thinking about the world a little bit differently and maybe looking to their financial providers to provide different levels of support, maybe more digital tools. But they're still looking for people who can help them navigate who can help them make sense out of what's going on and who can come up with ideas. And so I think you know, part of this teaming has gotta be well. How do we integrate? Not just the branch and the Commercial. Maybe we introduce business banking, I mean, I think you've probably seen it as I have. 

That's a big leap for a community bank to put in some business, and usually what those people are good at is translating. They're good at translating, you know, some of the business type issues that enable them to actually proceed forward. But I think one of the issues and I think this is already emerging is that people are becoming more focused on segments and the segments may not be just pure sales size. It may be well, these are the kind of businesses that we can do the best job for or it may be, you know, here are the kinds of problems that we think we can help people solve, you know, a huge one I alluded to was Treasury management. This is a big area, you know as well as I do you. You run a business. I run a business, you know, helping people manage their cash better, particularly in volatile interest rate environments when there are lots of options particularly when people have some concerns about security and the stability of their banking partners. You know  these are things where you can actually help wealth management.

Same thing, you know. How can we? How can we integrate the knowledge? Oftentimes the silos that have existed historically have not been to our advantage, I think. There's a great quote. I'm probably gonna mangle it from Warren Buffett, who said, banking is a great business. As long as you don't do anything dumb. Well, it's dumb not to bring expertise that you have in house to your customers and your prospects. I think one of the things I'll and I'll be interested in your take on it. I think there's, you know there is this sense that the old model of relationship management which I've preached, you know. Take care of your best customers. There may be some more opportunities, or don't lose them is relevant but you have to think about the rest of your customers, who oftentimes don't get a lot of attention, who may be being banked by you know that bank down the street that's now having some difficulties accommodating their requests, or maybe being banked by a very large institution that's retreating from a marketplace. We've seen, you know, large banks disappear from certain markets, or leave a you know, a token presence. 

So you have to think about it. How will the rest of that customer base? You know one of the things that I think was intuitively obvious is, if people bankers are being more proactive.

they will get more opportunities. Barlow's done a good job of highlighting that, you know, if you're proactive, you'll find more opportunities, and you'll close more business. But I think the idea of helping people with targeting sensibly and using their time and using some of those tools are the fun things that you and I are seeing here. Wow! You can think of what you can do with RelPro the ability to identify who's looking around for what? And that's crazy when you think about or think about the Vertical IQ people who can lay out for you. These are the 3 biggest issues that somebody who has a catering business is worried about. So you can walk in and sound halfway intelligent, and I think bankers are halfway intelligent. A big big issue is more than just sounding intelligent, being curious, and if we can arm people with the social skills to be curious, Jack. Curious boy, a lot of good things can happen.

Jack Hubbard 15:43

Well, you brought up so many good points. One of the things that irks me is

Around Treasury management, bankers are cheap when it comes to hiring those kinds of people. We need more Treasury management. People, Number one, and then they shouldn't be sitting at their desk waiting for commercial bankers to call them in. They should be very proactive, because now, even in 2024. We're still gonna want more deposits and fee income. Now is a great time to be able to do that. You talk about value words matter. I'm very big, as you know, on resource management. I think that a resource manager is that pro active, Go to banker, and too often what happens is, the bank says, well, we need more of this, so they'll go try to cross sell? Well, that's not how to treat a customer you cross solve their problems. And that's the real key. 

You also brought up branch management, and I'm curious about your take on what you're seeing in terms of branch managers going out and making sales calls because it's gonna continue in 2024. The branches are gonna be populated less and less by customers. But business customers do go in there, and I'm I don't know about you. I'm big on. I don't care if the Branch manager doesn't wanna go make sales calls. That's fine. Find somebody in the branch and teach them to go do it because we need that level of outreach within those branches, in those branches. What are you seeing with branch managers, Ned?

Ned Miller 17:19

So I think it's hard to say that. If you're trying to be successful in what I'll call the small business professional marketplace. You've got to be invisible for many years. The prevailing wisdom was, you know, branch managers. You're primarily a job. Your job is primarily customer service, mind the store and some of the largest banks built their models around that and in fact, it. It was probably a decade or so guys working with a bank that had taken a totally different approach, and they wanted their branch managers out, and this was, they were surrounded by the giants, and this was like a head turning approach to cultivating the marketplace, and what they found was one they could find managers who were very adroit at calling on businesses, and they went through a process. It took a while. Some of the people that ended up in those roles had been commercial bankers who really weren't being tasked to manage a lot of the day to day operations of branches and they were extraordinarily good at getting in front of business customers. 

The truth is, it's not for everybody. As you point out. I think you have to think about it. The models and branch banking are changing. I live about 2 miles from one of the newer branches of the Jp. Morgan operation. I say newer because I don't think they've opened their doors yet, but they're about ready to open their doors. They just built it. They're putting branches in different markets, they're for sure doing it strategically. They're not expecting them to be the kind of branches of the year. They're not as focused on transactions as they are for meetings and for communication. I think that you know that the challenge for a lot of branch bankers is gonna be to figure out what value they can add through their contacts in the community, through their interactions with customers and emerging. 

And I think what could emerge is a very different kind of branch model, even in community banks, because we're, you know, obviously making it easier for people to transact with us digitally. If you look at millennials and Gen Zs, that's what they want, and we're gonna give it to them. We are giving it to them, and community banks are giving it to them, and we'll give it to them. So what are your people? Your people have to be people who can help in other ways, and I think part of that is by being very clear about how they can add value, how they can assist people with problems that they may be facing. And you know your notion of being a resource is right to be a resource. How can you be a resource to a small business owner, personally and professionally? 

Jack Hubbard 20:17

Well, you know, I was thinking as I was getting ready for this with you. The last time you and I actually saw each other physically was at the New York Bankers Association, and I wanna say it was 2017. It might have been like 7 years ago. And you were teaching a prospecting class, and you do it better than anybody. You and I both are very big on prospecting. I always say, how do you get a banker to stop prospecting? And the answer is, put a telephone in front of them. Because it's a challenging kind of thing. What's 2024 gonna bring around prospecting in this longer cycle sale situation?

Ned Miller 21:00

Well, I think it may provide some immediate opportunities. I quoted Warren Buffett a minute or so ago. Bankers are doing dumb things, and it's not dumb, you know, to have massive reductions in force if those are appropriate. But sometimes, as you know.

The choices that people make about who to keep and who to leave are very arbitrary, particularly in large organizations that I give classic examples. There was a young fellow who was in a staff role. So I've been a very successful commercial banker, and they were looking for a way to grow. His skill set, and he took on a staff role, and he'd been in that role for a while, but he's clearly a high performing manager. He's involved in a situation, though, when there was a decision to dramatically cut back in this large organization and they let him go.

And before anybody realized his, his immediate boss, who was like a market president.

was no longer there to defend him. they let him go. 

He got hired by Jack within about 12 h, literally by another major bank. Who knows but dumb things happen so a dumb thing that could lead to an opportunity. And prospecting is that

the banker that has always been your Nemesis is no longer your Nemesis, a positive thing that could come out of developing people. And this sort of gets back to, how do we make banking sexier? I have a client who used to say to the young men and women they hired, and I think it's important to say men and women. There was a day, Jack, when I'd look out into an audience of commercial bankers, and I wouldn't see many women. When you see that today, you know, there's a problem, same thing with people of color. As you know, I think some of the banks are operating in different marketplaces. They're not hiring the best in the brightest. They're gonna be in trouble. But anyway,  I was thinking about, you know, this issue of getting people motivated and running in the old way that this bank used to talk to people. 

This is a regional bank. See? We hope you have a career here forever. And they change that. They say we don't know how long you're gonna be here, but we're gonna teach you things that are gonna make you valuable wherever you go and we're gonna put you into situations that are gonna test you. And we're not gonna hide you in you know the credit department forever. We're gonna put you out in front of our best customers, and we're gonna ask you to do things. And 

It's been a dramatic change in retention and a dramatic change in how motivated people are. 

I think it does come, you know. Prospecting, as you know, is a team sport

you've got to get. You got to have a plan about how you're going to integrate people, and the plan involves, you know, smart touches, you, and I probably get touched more by dumb touches than smart touches. But the idea that, you know, be smart about how and why you're contacting people. Have a strategy that involves integrating senior management. They have to get out. In fact, they don't get out enough. Involve your credit team. If credit is maybe a possibility, if not now, down the road. Certainly Treasury management has to be part of the conversation into your point earlier about getting the right numbers. 

We got to change the thought process about you know what the right ratios are, because it's so critically important that Treasury managers be out in front on some of these these calls, but I think the idea of building teams building a plan having a focus that will enable them to to be successfully may pick off some low hanging fruit but they're also laying the groundwork, because, you know, in commercial and business banking, unlike in real estate where opportunities may come fast and furious or certain. More frequently, you don't get a lot of opportunities to win the whole business that you're seeking, but you may have small opportunities. And this is where you can help somebody with a personal wealth management challenge? Can you help them with the 401 K plan administration opportunities, maybe an opportunity. Can you be that other depository? You know, to be the person that they're the bank that gives them a little more comfort, but they don't have all their eggs in one basket.

There are ways to start this, but, as you know, it's a marathon, not a sprint.

Jack Hubbard 25:31

It is, indeed. And  you know, I wanna talk in conjunction with prospecting about Linkedin with you in a second. But one of the things you said really sparks something with me, and that is, bankers need to think more strategically. I get so many bankers telling me why I would never connect with one of my competitors. Well, you said the exact reason that they should. Let's say that you're a commercial banker, and you've got a couple of competitors and you're competing against them constantly for opportunities. One of them has decided to move to Seattle because of whatever reason.

You might know that immediately. If you're connected with that person on Linkedin because their profile changes, their job changes. That opens a ton of doors. We kinda need to think about that. But how are you seeing your clients use Linkedin as part of the sales process? Yeah, I get calls from people all the time to say, You know, Jack, you've trained a lot of bankers, and you used to talk about sales, training and prospecting. And now you're talking about Linkedin? Well.

not true. Linkedin is part of the sales process. It is not the sales process. What are you advising your banks? And what do you see around bankers using Linkedin?

Ned Miller 26:45

So I think you know there has been progress, Jack, for many years. I thought I was like you, one of the profits wandering in the wilderness and say, guys, you gotta use this we're we're LinkedIn now, for most bankers is viewed as a way to to think about their networks. You know we can't use the term rolodex anywhere, because nobody under age 50 knows what the heck we're talking about. But this is where you keep a lot of your contacts. It's also where you can keep an eye on some of the people that you may be interested in. If you're a middle manager

who's now probably, unfortunately, in a lot of Community Bank State, producing middle managers, producing managers who have to manage his or her book of business and also managing people. Not a good, not a good construct. But I might come back to that in a second, but you have to think about recruiting and you and I both know that you have to always be recruiting, which is not. It's not part of the mindset. But if you're thinking about your point about who's out there, you know, Linkedin is a great tool for investigating, you know, backgrounds and trying to see connections. 

I was with a friend yesterday who's had a very successful career in high tech sales, and I actually posed the question to him about what he's seen, he said. You know, we all start now with trying to see the connection. We're looking for connections, and you know as well as I do that some of the people that we work with and recommend, and I've alluded to some of them earlier. But you know, the Martin Wise of the world and the Susan Bells of the world. They're always looking to see if there's a connection, because connections can lead to conversations. Connections can lead to introductions, conversations can lead to a lot of things that might be helpful to us. As we're trying to move forward. 

So I think there's a greater appreciation among most bankers of how that element works. I think what you're helping people with this thing about how it fits into the bigger picture strategy the solution to your prospecting ills is not Linkedin. But it's a piece of how you might think about it. What are you seeing? What kinds of messages are you getting from folks.

Jack Hubbard 28:59

Well, one of the nice things about it is that banks now are actually allowing their people to be on Linkedin for many years. Bank presidents would say to me, well, I don't want my people on Linkedin, because I don't wanna get them recruited to another organization. And I said, you've got more of a problem than Linkedin. If you feel that way, if you can't retain your best people, a lot are still looking at it as a baseball card tool, which is, you buy a pack of baseball cards and you look at them and you put them in the drawer. It's not about, you know, collecting connections. It's about doing something with that. 

I'm also seeing a lot more content being posted. But the content I'm I'm seeing being posted

a lot of times is Branch opening pictures, and I was at the Art Show, and we had a Chamber of Commerce dinner, and those are all fine but there needs to be some thought behind this content. Because if you wanna be viewed as a thought Leader. And I think that's a very overused term. If you wanna be viewed as that, you need to publish content that is going to get people. Curious enough to say, I wonder what else this person is thinking? That's the kind of thing we can do. We should be thinking about Linkedin as well as many other things.

So I view this as a great way to connect with you again, because we just talk, and it's just kind of fun. But you mentioned a passion of both of ours, and that's coaching and sales leadership. And I think it's still a huge missing piece, and I'd like to see in 2024

Sales leaders coach more behaviorally, coach more often and be there for their people. What? What are you advising your clients? And what are you seeing around this whole concept of coaching and sales leadership?

Ned Miller 31:04

Yeah, I think. One of the things that I'm encouraging people to do is, take it more seriously. And some of it's academic. You know, I'm a big fan of this particular publication, the salesman survival guy which Dave Brock wrote 5 or 6 years ago thinking about new sales managers. And that's an audience that we have to think about, because taking one of your best performers and turning them into a what I called earlier producing sales manager is probably something that you ought to think long and hard about. But you have to think about how that role is gonna develop sales management skills, a critical one being coaching and one of the things that often happens is, you know, when somebody moves into that role, or even if he's now a full-time sales manager. They don't get a lot of guidance and instruction on what they ought to be doing. So that's a piece in the puzzle. 

The second part of that, though, is, if you are in a situation where, for whatever reason you have to manage a portfolio and manage people. What does that mean? I don't think a middle manager in that role should be doing the same things as an Rm. That he was doing or she was doing before becoming the manager. I think there could be other assignments and some of that might be, you know. So you've got a portfolio. Let's try to window it down. But let's get you involved in some things that might be different. What could that be? Well, you know, help us think through our segmentation strategy which niches to go after developing a playbook work on content. You know, whatever it is, that's gonna stretch the person.

When it comes to coaching. I think there's a lot of practical kind of coaching material out there, one of the things that you and I compare notes on periodically. And you're very good about sharing books that you've read. I think that books and podcasts on coaching can be extraordinarily valuable. I'll recommend one that you may be following. It's a, it's a wonderful

in addition to my podcast list is called Coaching for leaders and it's written. It's done by dates to the Hovie Act. I think he's close to 700 Podcasts. But it's an amazing trove of information about

leadership issues coaching being a major 1. 

One of the guys that I had never heard of before. Watching the podcast is a guy named Michael Bungay Staner. That name ring a bell? So he became famous for a self published book called The Coaching Habit he's an interesting, interesting man. He's one of Marshall goldsmiths, you know, top 50 coaches. One of the things that he talks about are the 7 best coaching questions. And I saw him being interviewed by Marshall Goldsmith, who you're familiar with, and Marshall says, come on, Michael, cut to the chase. What is the best coaching question, and Michael Bundy stands. You're kind of hemmed in. Well, you know. It's not that, you know. It's you gonna laugh and Marshall goes, what is it? And well, Michael said, well, there's a mnemonic that I use, and it's awesome. That's the mnemonic it's and what else.

So when you think about coaching, part of what you have to guide people toward is avoiding what Michael Bundy said. Your calls in the other in one of his other books the Advice Trap. You know, there's a tendency for people to say, You know, all right, do this? You know somebody will explain. What do I do in a lot of situations, particularly when it comes to sales and strategy. You know, people need help articulating their strategy. People might need help thinking it through. They don't need somebody that solves their problem. They need somebody that helps them

Advance.

So I think there's lots of interesting tools out there. I also think coaching for some. I'm doing some coaching right now for a couple of people in different situations. One's a Treasury management person who's been elevated to manage a Treasury management team

need some help understanding how to coach on their treasury manager. It's interesting. I've got some producing sales managers, which is why I'm ranting about producing sales managers. They need help. I think you know, the coaching can come from people inside the organization.

The mentoring could take place from outsiders. You know, stuff that you do extremely well. Like, there are a lot of potential resources. Board members might be helpful. There are lots of ways that we can help develop the coaching skills. The major thing is making sure that the time is accorded to it. and that it is rewarded, that people recognize it.

Jack Hubbard 35:47

Well, that's a good catch. And I think you're right about the producing sales manager. I you know, I know of a bank who had a just a terrific sales manager, but he also had to do

production, and he would do his production first because he was a great RM. And then by the second half of the year, he tried to coach his bankers, who weren't as good as him. They were never getting the results they wanted. Finally they said, Look, we gotta take this guy out of production and make him a full time. Sales manager and things have changed. The turnover is less. The production is much better, and the motivation and the environment is is pretty

significant as well. And you were talking about the role of a manager a little bit ago. I'll tell you a quick story.

I have a bank that I know, that has a future banker board, and at the beginning of every pipeline meeting. Not a pipe dream meeting cause they're specific, but are strategic, but a pipeline meeting. Actually, the manager says, Okay, tell me about the great bankers you heard about this week, and what they're trying to do is to populate that board. Well, the way they find that out is, the bankers are required sometimes during the call to say, Hey, by the way, you mentioned your bank, or or you know, hey, let's talk about bankers a bit. Who are the great bankers calling on you, and they're getting names. They're recruiting bankers, but you know, the client doesn't know it, and they put the names on the board.

The manager’s responsibility is to go to Linkedin. Look, look them up, and to see if there might be an opportunity to have a conversation with them. Just to kind of get this started, Bob St. Meyer and I, when we started our company, one of things we always used to say is, there's a lot of planes circling O'hare, and we wanna keep them up there until one of them lands for us. Isn't that true? And the problem is somebody leaves and there's a complete fire drill there, there's panic. Well, what are we gonna do? How do we separate her customer base? We gotta go find somebody. And then what you do is you find somebody that fogs a mirror or can add one in one together? That's the wrong thing to do as proactive as you and I talk about. We want our bankers to be. Our managers need to be as proactive as well.

Well, you've given me such great insight as you always do. And you've been so kind with your time. One of the things I want to talk about is your podcast. You do something called Ned Talks. Talk about how that all came about and and what's Ned talks all about

Ned Miller 38:26

Thanks for mentioning that I wanted to introduce some of my banker friends, some people that I thought they might not normally have interactions with and it was pretty easy to do. Sort of what we're doing now, Jack, which is, have a conversation with somebody around a topic that they were passionate about, and in almost all cases knew a lot more about than I do so that was the genesis of it, and it's been fun. I roam a little bit. But II tried to find things that first may have some applicability to the banking industry. I did one recently that was on how sales managers should leverage. CRM, and it's a topic that you know, has been around for a long time. 

But I found somebody who I personally thought did a really good job of doing, and had him talk.

It was easy and fun to do. I I admire the professionalism and the verve that you put into this minor definitely low budget affairs. But I've enjoyed it, and probably will continue doing it. And I'm probably gonna ask you to be on. Ned talks at some point in the future cause you're a much more engaging and entertaining guy than I am, so…

Jack Hubbard 39:39

Well, thank you, Ned, I would love that, and that would be a real honor. And speaking of honors, what a great privilege to chat with you as always. I'm glad your business is doing well. I want to close. You mentioned a couple of books, and I love Dave Brock and and the fact that you've held the book up, and it's all dog geared, and you got posted notes all over it. That's great. But you are one of the better educated men that I know around reading and staying on top of things. You've mentioned a couple of books and a couple of folks that we ought to be reading and following?

Ned Miller 38:26 

I got my cheat sheet here. We talked about some of them. I do think that people should be familiar with Anthony Iannarino who has been a publishing wonder kind of person if you're a sales manager leading growth came out last year. He's got in a book that came out at the end of 2023 on negativity, getting the attitude. If you're not a big reader, I encourage people to read, because I think it's one of the ways that we can expand our horizons. I would encourage you to follow somebody on their block

Anthony Innarino publishes a lot as does Dave Brock. You know, I've been talking about his book, but his partners and excellence blog is fascinating, and shows you where he's thinking, and so on. So I put Anthony Innarino up there. I remember being impressed from the retail banking side by Alison Netzer and the book that she put together to think like a brand.

not a bank. And the first chapter of that in and of itself is well worth the price of admission. But talks about what would happen if a bank branch manager started to manage your local Starbucks, and there've been some hilarious takes based on that. 

But most retail bankers sort of nod their head and go. Yeah, unfortunately, that's true. The other thing. Again, that I mentioned in terms of staying, current is you know, think about podcasts and think about subscribing. I would encourage people, Jack, to follow you because you have a stream of very interesting guests, and we'll continue to add to that but find some podcasts that fit into your driving time, your walking time that will enable you to move forward. So those would be a few of my recommendations.

Jack Hubbard 42:05

Great. Well, Ned, thanks again for your time. All the best, I hope in 2024 we get a chance to maybe finally get out and play some golf together, and who knows? Maybe by mid-year 2024, I'll have you on again, and we'll see how all these predictions come to pass.

Ned Miller 42:20

That'd be great. I enjoyed it. Thanks, Jack.

Outro  36:32

Thanks for listening to this 1st episode of 2024 of Jack Rants with Modern Bankers with my guest Ned Miller. This in every program is brought to you by our friends at RelPro and Vertical IQ. Join us next time for more special guests bringing you marketing sales and leadership insights as well as ideas that will provide your bank or credit union that competitive edge you need to succeed.

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