Episode 33: Allison Netzer

Jack Hubbard 00:01
I've had the privilege of being in and around banking for more than 50 years. Lots of changes during that time. We've gone from Ledger's to laptops, typewriters to technology. One thing, however, remains the same. Banking is a people business. And I'll be talking with those people that make banking great here on Jack Rants With Modern bankers.
Welcome to Jack Rants With Modern Bankers brought to you by RelPro, and Vertical IQ. Each week I feature top voices in financial services from bankers and consultants, to best selling authors and many more. The goal of this program is simple, to provide insights, success practices and to bring new ideas to the table that you can use to maximize your results.
Now, if you're in marketing or leadership and financial services, my guest today Allison Netzer is a very familiar name. Allison is Chief Marketing and Strategy Officer of Nymbus. Alison earned a degree in business management and marketing from North Carolina State University. She started her technology career at Dell on the sales side and she quickly rose through the ranks to become a global marketing director. I met Alison through my friend James Robert Leigh, and I'm most grateful he made that introduction.
Allison's name is probably familiar to you as well, from her two amazing best sellers, Think like a brand, not a bank, and her most recent book, a year of thinking differently. What a fun conversation with Alison Netzer, on Jack Rants with Modern Bankers. Here we go. Well, as I mentioned, James Robert Leigh introduced me to Allison and I'm so proud and glad that he did. So glad to have you on the show, Alison.

Allison Netzer 02:01
Well, thank you so much for having me, Jack. I'm excited.

Jack Hubbard 02:05
Well, first of all, congratulations on both books. And we're going to talk about them a little bit. But as you know, in listening to some of my other shows, I always like to start with telling me something good.

Allison Netzer 02:15
I love the way you start these. Wow, it said the weather has finally turned cooler here in North Carolina where I am. So I'm excited about that. And I've got some of my Texas family coming in town this weekend. So I'm really looking forward to it.

Jack Hubbard 02:32
Outstanding. That's terrific. Let's start with Nymbus. It's a multifaceted organization. And I'm sure based on the fact that you're there. You could talk about it for a long time. But give us a sense of Nymbus and what you do.

Allison Netzer 02:47
Sure, yeah, I could talk about it all day. So Nymbus, I would say is a challenger, fintech. So we provide better bank in a box solutions or a better box solutions for community banks and credit unions. So it's a fully functional parallel core, as well as the front end, the back end, and it's all delivered as a managed service. So I think it connects well with the with the modern banker.

Jack Hubbard 03:18
I think it does as well, and certainly hope you continue to have great success with it. And when you talk about modern bankers, one of the things that you did in 2022 that I read, is this book, your first book, Think like a brand, not a bank. I think it's a game changer for Community Bank CMOS. Talk about this book a little bit, this is a good first start.

Allison Netzer 03:42
Well, you're very generous. So thank you for reading it. I co wrote that book with a friend of mine, Liz, hi. And it was a passion project. About five years in the making. It didn't take us five years to write the book, but just the concept of thinking more like a brand than a bank. And in that book, we cover five principles to help you move to brand thinking, along with I hope, making the business case, to sell the approach internally, which is very important with any kind of change management.

Jack Hubbard 04:19
One of the things that was in the book, and I was talking to a banker about this recently, and your book just came up, and we were talking and she said have you read the chapter or the part in the book about if a if a banker became a barista at Starbucks talk about that, that part of the book.

Allison Netzer 04:37
Wow. Yes, that's the front. The beginning part of the principles. This is one of my favorite parts. So I'd like to say it was a flash of literary brilliance that brought that about but Liz and I were at a writers retreat trying to finish the book. And after maybe a couple glasses of wine. We just started joking. Like, what would be the worst kind of what would be a nightmare? What if we started this book with just just a nightmare, right instead of a dream. And somehow we got on the topic of what if you know, Starbucks, it was like going into a Starbucks and having been taken over by a bank, or a banker. And so we kind of wrote it out as a skit as an amusing way to start the book. And what's really interesting is several banks have done this live, like performing it as a skit live one in front of their board. And then when Liz and I were talking at a conference for Synovus bank, we actually did the skit live with the visors and the aprons and everything. So it's kind of a fun way to start it off.

Jack Hubbard 05:54
Well, a lots happened, since you've written some very good and some not so good. And it's one of those challenges that we have every few years as a as bankers, I talked about when I got started in banking in 1973, the inflation rate was pretty high and went to 20 and a half, in 1980. Then we had the S&L crisis, we had the real estate crisis, we had 2008, which was a challenge. We had the pandemic or 911, we had the pandemic. And now the earlier this year SVB, and all the rest of it. Talk about talk about the changes you're seeing in the way bankers are approaching their brand. Good and bad.

Allison Netzer 06:42
Sure. But I think a lot of those macro events, and certainly the history, right, we have kind of long memories in banking for good reason. So you know, I've seen more positive than negative, I'll say, and I'd like to think in a small way that thinking like a brand at a bank has helped start a dialogue. And certainly the SVB situation started as well about what brand is the strategic value. Why CMOS needs to participate and be empowered to participate in a different way.
I'm seeing a lot of communities really blend, digital and physical very well. Example of this is locality banks, in South Florida. So they started out wanting to be digital only, and actually went physical which normally, you kind of do it the other way around. So kind of seeing some reverse engineering, I also see it and you've pointed this out a couple of times on LinkedIn as well, that the language banks use to engage with their customers and their communities. It's becoming simpler. We're not there yet, but it is getting closer. And there are many fives that are seeking to solve problems, instead of showcasing rates.
Great example of that. Joe Chrystia, what she's done with Roger Bank. So together with Nymbus, they tackle the issue of newly enlisted service members under the age of 18 who are required to have a joint account holder. And that creates all kinds of challenges for these young men and women. So solving that issue, removing that getting really clear on a real world problem for the customer, is something that I'm seeing more and more. So those are the positives, the negatives you still see. And I think they'll always be there.
And for that reason, I think you and I will always have jobs. How to evolve, how to become more modern, how to become more responsive in the work that we do branding, and marketing is a very different practice now than it was in the past. And that's a good thing. But there's also a role for history. And I see a lot of banks, like Umpqua Bank, really weave in the power of their history, but in a really, really modern way. So I'm seeing more good than bad out there.

Jack Hubbard 09:29
I agree that and one of the challenges having been a banker since the 70s is how do you get an industry that's kind of a dinosaur and very slow moving yet deregulated to become more innovative? It's hard because we're the foundation of the economy of the country we see and other fintechs and credit unions etc. have got to do this, but there are ways to be creative within your brand. And in the book, you talk about wistful We stand for service and I want to ask you about that in a second. But there are banks out there, like, like Agility Bank down in Houston. Sparks has done just a marvelous job. I think it's 60% Women Owned. There's a bank in Georgia, Oconee State Bank, Neal Stevens, the president of that bank, has done some things and they call it remarkable. He's actually put a studio in one of his branches, where he brings prospects and clients in and interviews them for his podcast.
So there's a lot of really good things going on. There's a bank up in Pennsylvania, LeAnn Khasab and Mary Kate Loftus have had, along with their teams, launched in Impressia Bank, which is a bank really focused on women. And you know, there's a lot of other examples of that, where people are really targeting their banking, but let's go back to the way we stand for service. I've done some work with them. I know a lot there. And I know what's in the book, talk about what you put in the book about that bank?

Allison Netzer 11:10
Sure. Well, Justin Dunn is one of my favorite people, but he's definitely one of my favorite marketers, and he's a CMO too, to watch. So in the book, we talk about whizzes. And basically the risk that Justin took, how he was able to sell change, internally, right, he took a big swing at the fence and leaning into what the community had started referring to their bank as it wasn't the official name of the bank. And then tying that shorthand to their values, we stand for service and the billboard campaign he did, and he and his team did around that, which was really funny, very risky. But it was just a wistful Question mark. And just kind of put it all up over the the highways and byways and as Gio, and just the combination he did, of making the business case to his board, making sure they understood this wasn't a campaign, this was a way of being right, this is care and feeding of a brand has to happen.
And then how we brought people into the equation, and we put a quote from him in the book that says your most valuable brand asset walks out of your branch every night, right? And those are your employees. So really kind of starting with the employees as the primary audience whenever you're going to do something related to a brand because they own it. Marketing keeps the brand, but the brand belongs to everyone. And everyone has to participate. So they do a great job of that.

Jack Hubbard 13:05
They do and a couple of bankers, I know they're at a pretty senior level. And I don't know if they still do this, but their president when they did a strategic or action oriented plan, they would actually take it to the field and they would say okay, well, I, you know, where we want to develop our strategic plan. And I heard Peggy Eddins was telling me she thinks she retired now, but that even one of the janitors gave a tremendous idea to the banker to the bank president. Then they put this all together, and he does town hall meetings, and he goes out and introduces their strategic plan, which is the most innovative thing I've ever done. Are they still doing that? To your knowledge?

Allison Netzer 13:44
Yeah, to my knowledge, they're still doing that. And it's a model that I'm starting to see more and more, and what you're hitting on and maybe a call to action for all the folks in your community is, we know about these examples, because these are F fives and these are leaders that are committed to building out loud, right to building in public and sharing their stories, the good and the bad, right? Coming on podcasts like this posting about it. We don't know if you don't tell us right. And so people can't take the model, embrace it, improve upon it, if we're not building out loud and building in public. And so I think wiz fizz does that quote. Mary Kate, lots of lots of the folks you mentioned, we know about them not because they're huge institutions, not because they have big paid fancy ad campaigns. But because they're out there talking about it and being very transparent. And that, to me, is a huge part of modern banking and modern marketing is building out loud.

Jack Hubbard 14:49
No doubt. And if I can rant for just one second I recently received from the American Banker, the 25 most powerful women in banking magazine. It's outstanding. One thing I'd love to see from the American Banker or somebody is the 25 most innovative financial institution marketing professionals. I think we need to elevate that brand, that internal brand, to get those CMOS to the C suite, because they have such a stake in this. And if they don't understand how the bank or credit union makes money enough that a credit union needs to make money, but how they grow. It's unfortunate that a lot of CMOS don't understand that.

Allison Netzer 15:34
I know I think it's, I think it's a great rant, I'm very fortunate, where I work. So our CEO, I'm a chief marketing and strategy officer, and that was at the behest of our CEO, Jeffrey Kendall, who understands that marketing is a strategic function and that I have to be at that table. Now, we also have to flip the coin over right as CMOS, we have to hold ourselves accountable to not just showing up with pictures, to not just, you know, talking about marketing KPIs, that's a different language than what our internal audience understands. So it cuts both ways. But you're absolutely right, I think to take these next steps, like some of the examples you gave, we have to see marketing as a strategic function.

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Jack Hubbard 16:41
No doubt. And if you're a CMO at a bank, and you haven't purchased, think like a brand, not a bank, you need to go out and get it now. And go this, get this. This is. And I told you this when we did our planning session, this is the most unique book I've ever read. I mean, there's just no question. And we'll talk about the guts of it and how it's all laid out. But talk about the inspiration for a year of thinking differently. It's phenomenal.

Allison Netzer 17:14
Well, thank you so much for that. I really seriously, I'm very humbled to hear you say that, especially being an author yourself. I would say in February of 2022, I started a weekly newsletter in LinkedIn called the Friday frame up. And it was really a way to force myself out of a creative rut that I was going through at work. So I was doing all the trying to do all the things we all do, I was given a read more looking for things outside of the day to day for inspiration. But I really wanted to make myself accountable to try new things.
So again, building out loud. So after a little over a year of writing the Friday frame up, I realized a newsletter was a terrible format for this content. So as a marketer, I had completely violated what was the best format for the content. Because I couldn't go back and find anything I could make notes easily. So I turned it into a book, and added quite a bit to it. But it seems to be a much better format. At least for me to use.

Jack Hubbard 18:25
Well, it's outstanding. And I'll let you describe the book and how you all put it together but 51 chapters. Each chapter starts with a quote from a book. So you reference a book, worked me through a chapter, because they're all laid out about the same. And I told you this is a training manual. I really think it could be a training manual, it's a field book. So walk us through the chapters and how they're laid out.

Allison Netzer 18:56
Sure. Well, first, I know when we say 51 chapters, it sounds like I've rewritten the Bible. It is a short book. They're very short, short chapters, but they each have the same sections, like you mentioned. So the first section I call reading for perspective. And so from a book that I have read, I tried to take some insights. Certainly summarize the book briefly. If someone cares to read the whole thing, the whole book, but then try to take the wisdom of that and they're not all business books, and see if there's something we can get out of it something we can twist or turn or frame up to apply it to some of the common challenges that we all face at work. Once you have that perspective, right, so you're kind of a book is sort of like living in someone else's world or borrowing their perspective.
Then the next section is looking for inspiration. So in my mind You have, you have a broad perspective and now you need to kind of go find something to to fire you up, right. And so whether it's nature art or music, just trying to bring something in that's related, that is easy to replicate, where you can just take what I observed, and then commit to change, right, making a change. And that's where I know you like a lot of the hands on exercises. So there's a hands on exercise in every chapter that kind of blends those things together, how do you make it real. And then the last section of every chapter is the outro, where I try to add a little something a little push, a little encouragement to go out and try try this new mindset, it may or may not work for you, but it's kind of worth trying on and seeing if you like it, and kind of go from there. So the same process. That way to your point, you can read the whole thing through you can do a chapter a week, you can open it randomly and find some perspective for whatever you're facing. The hope is that it remains a reference and gets covered in pencil and sticky notes.

Jack Hubbard 21:13
Yeah, which I've done, and one Sunday. And this has a lot to do with you. And a lot to do with the Chicago Bears. I just turned the Bears game off. I mean, first of all, they suck. But I just turned this off. And my wife said you turn the Bears game off, and you're reading the book, what's wrong with you. And I just, I had to get through the whole thing. So you mentioned a number of things in the chapters. And just a couple of real quick things, because you got to buy the book. One of the things you talk about is perhaps and managers might have a little apoplexy over this is maybe cancel a meeting, and you cancel a meeting at a regular meeting. But don't don't let them go off and check emails, have them and maybe you even assign a podcast or something different that they can look at. Because you want them to be thinking differently. That was a terrific idea. Love that.

Allison Netzer 22:09
Thank you. Yeah, no, this is one of the people's favorites that I've heard and in my research I actually found some great supporting content. There's a professor named Cassie Holmes at the Anderson School of Business at UCLA. And she also contributes to the hidden brain podcast on how this habit kind of makes us become happier. So it's not about telling your team or yourself, hey, I've got 15 minutes of time between this and this. Let me know, listen to a podcast on 10x. So I can become 10x more productive. It's not this is not a productivity hack, book. And this is not a productivity hack exercise. It's intentionally saying, You know what, I know Jack, you and I meet every two weeks. Let's go ahead and cancel the next one coming up.
And during that time, I'm going to listen to a podcast, you're going to listen to a podcast. And the next time we get together, we're going to talk about that podcast or how that podcast can relate to whatever the challenge is that you and I are working on or the project we're working on. So you can assign it, it can be a podcast, it can be anything. But it's that action of a leader saying you know what, we're going to break out of the routine, we're going to do something new, both of us. And we're going to use that new thing to enhance our routine work. There's something very freeing about that, as a leader, there's something very freeing about that is the person who reports to that leader, and it starts to build into that culture slowly, and not in a big change way to look outside of the day to day to make the day to day better.

Jack Hubbard 24:07
It’s outstanding. One other thing I really liked in the book and you talk about exercises, you talk about five steps to effort and effectiveness. Give us an overview of that, I was very fascinated by those five steps.

Allison Netzer 24:23
Yeah, well, I am too and I will not take full credit for it. It was inspired by Paul Bloom's book. It's called the sweet spot. And one of the things he says in that book is that the relationship between meaning and effort is not universal. And that hit me pretty hard, right? So if you're my manager, your meaning and understanding of effort may not be the same as mine. And I think we all know that to be true. So it's a very simple exercise but it's to write down all of the tasks that you do in your job, then you sort them by importance. So that's kind of over here on the left hand side. And on the right hand side, you stack rank them by importance or significance to you. And what's interesting about that just even visually is, you see, start to see patterns and in gaps, right, the things that are the hardest, aren't always the most significant, and vice versa.
So from there, you make changes, and it's not, it's not swinging from one end to the other, right? Where I'm only going to do things that are significant to me, right, that's probably not going to work out too well for you. But if you only know the low effort things, or just the high effort, things without the meaning you're gonna burn out. So it's really about having a balance to create meaningful and sustainable work. So a very simple exercise you can do anytime you're sort of battling with prioritization, or you just feel like you're that sort of sense, like, Am I really working on the right things, know what those things are? No buckets they're in and that's very liberating, it's okay to spend an hour doing low significance work. If you know that's what you're doing. And then it's super illuminating, super gratifying to spend an hour doing high significance work, it's about labeling what that kind of work is, and just intentionally knowing what you're going in and doing.

Jack Hubbard 26:41
Fascinating. And if you're going to be effective at the effort, one of the things you can do is to get organized, about organizing based on the task at hand, my wife was interested in this chapter, because in my office here in the world headquarters, I'm not as organized as she would probably like, talk about organizing for the task at hand, that's a little different.

Allison Netzer 27:05
It is a little different, it does not mean it is not a Marie Kondo like be you know, be organized or bees in all the time, even though I like that, and I think that might be what your wife wants. She's interested in this chapter but it starts by seeing your workspace. Much the same way as we see our computers, right, you remember we used to call our laptops or desktops, we used to call them workstations, you remember. So you know, opening the right tabs, closing distractions, getting the files together for a project, we spend a lot of time if you think about it, sort of organizing this, this piece of glass between us when you're going into a project. And, just like you wouldn't dive into a project without the right apps, you know, applications open or having the right files, you should do the same thing with your physical space. So it's not about dusting or organizing, it's about taking the power of the entire space in service of the project you're working on. So it's really about the outcome, not about the organization.
So if you're doing a history of your life, Jack, that's a lot of life that you've lived, your space would not look like this. If you're going to do that project, right? It would be intentionally messy, you would have boxes of papers and pictures, you'd have all sorts of stuff around. And that's good, right? That is taking your entire workspace in service of the project you're working on, not just making it glass, right. Austin Kleon is one of my favorite authors. And he has an analog desk and a digital desk. And when I'm in my office, which this is not, this is where I do, where I do podcasts, I do the same thing. The left side of my desk is analog, right side is digital. So I'm not constantly redecorating every day, I just literally am turning in my chair, depending on what I'm working on. And so again, the point of that is you've got all these resources around you not just in your screen, so bring everything to bear for a better outcome.

Jack Hubbard 29:35
That's very cool. There's there's two things that I look for in every book that I read. Number one, can I use it? Easy, no problem. The second thing I look at is if it's a sales related or a performance related book, something like what you have written, I always look for a little nugget of coaching. And one of the things that I loved and it harkens back to one of my favorite all time books, the whole heart of coaching. And you are inset in this book. How did that come about?

Allison Netzer 30:06
Oh, wow. Yeah, the heart of coaching is an incredible, incredible book and also an incredible podcast series. I came across it while listening to a podcast, when I had canceled a meeting. Because one of the things I realized is all of this that we're kind of talking about today, these are all changes, these are all exercises, you're going to find something that really, really resonates with you, like, you know, a particular chapter or a particular quote. And I want you to be excited about it. And I want you to ingest it. And I want you to use it in your life. But I also want you to be able to coach others on whether it's that mindset, or just the fact that you can try on different mindsets like you try on different clothes. And so how you really get into making this a scalable practice and making it part of your internal culture, making it part of your team's culture. And you can't do that by requiring you to do that, through coaching and really getting at, again, the heart of the matter and a lot of what we're trying to do.

Jack Hubbard 31:29
Outstanding. So you've got 51 exercises, maybe not every chapter has one, but Well, we've got a lot of exercises in the book, you have to have one. What’s your favorite?

Allison Netzer 31:43
Oh, my. Yeah, well, you would hope. And again, these are simple exercises. So I thought we were like, oh my god, I'm not gonna read this book 51 exercises. They're very simple exercises. So I do have a favorite exercise. In the book, it's actually on page 94. And it's called singing your song. So it doesn't really, it doesn't actually involve singing. So I'm not going to be singing on the podcast, but it's a two part exercise. I think it's very interesting. So you choose an upcoming presentation, or like a podcast, like what we're doing. And rather than preparing your talking points, like you would normally do, you approach it, like you're composing a song, and in the book actually put the structure of songwriting and what kind of makes a good song. So you talked about the backbeat of the chapter.
So you establish the rhythm or the pattern you want your audience to remember, right, that's your intro. You know, we're taught to, you know, here's my one big idea. Or if you remember one thing from my presentation, that's your chorus, right? Something catchy and repeatable. And then you've got to bridge it. And this is the part we normally forget, write connecting the dots. At the end, instead of ending the presentation with a, you know, a slide that says questions, you would never end a song, you know, just stopping the song, right? If you think about your favorite songs, usually the end is the chorus and then kind of a connecting of the dots of the song.
So that's, that's the bridge. And then the second part of the exercise is to pretend the presentation is actually for you, that you're your own audience. And that's pretty wild, to see the difference in a presentation if it's for you, as opposed to the Morpheus audience, somewhere. So it's about singing your own song and being you know, PowerPoint presentations are a very sort of artificial structure. So how can you really be true and authentic to yourself? In the way you actually structure the presentation.

Jack Hubbard 34:02
Oh, that's outstanding. Well, I have a couple more questions. So you’ll be you and you go out and buy your book. And you look at it and go, This is really good. I can't do it all. I can't swallow the ocean. Talk to me about where I should start here. What could I do differently every day?

Allison Netzer 34:26
Oh, wow. I mean, so as if it were me, right. So the landscape that we all work in is very complex. But like you mentioned at the beginning, there's so much opportunity for innovation, and out of the box thinking it can be exciting, but it can be overwhelming. So I think there's a couple small things I think. Even if you don't read the book, let's just even pretend you don't read the book even though I'd love it if you would before diving into your daily tasks. You If you take five minutes, or two minutes, whatever, however many minutes you can spare to reevaluate a current strategy to a persistent problem and just apply a different mindset to, for example, I have a finance review coming up in a couple of hours.
And normally, I would just go in, listen to the content, I'm a CMO, I, you know, I'm not a not a finance person, I would just sort of listen and take notes as we talk about our 2024 budget. And some of the challenges, just we're all facing in the macro environment. So what I would actually do instead, is I'm going to borrow a different mindset for that meeting. And I'm actually going to literally pretend to be our Chief Compliance and Risk Officer, and I'm going to listen to it from that lens, I'm going to ask questions from that lens.
One, I think it could be beneficial to the group, because it could be a different spin, a different thing that I haven't thought of, because I am not a Compliance and Risk Officer. But also, quite frankly, it'll keep me more engaged in something that is important, but is not in my nature to be passionate about. So that's something that you can just do today. Just pick any old meeting on your calendar, pretend to have a different mindset or be a different person going into that meeting

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Allison Netzer 36:44
I think just the second one if I could throw in there is, is, is read. So in a you know, we're an industry like you said, We're it's you know, kind of old school, we're all were often accused of, of homogeneity. So bringing in perspectives from outside of banking, don't use the excuse, we're a highly regulated industry. Every industry is regulated from food service all the way through. So you know, look at technology, look at design, look at other service industries, and really pull from there, don't just read banking books or business books, read children's books, read something, and bring that into your thinking.

Jack Hubbard 37:28
Outstanding. And that is going to be my last question to you. I mentioned that, you know, James, Robert, lay introduced me to you, I know you're a fan of Eric Cook. Who else, if I'm the bank CMO. Who else should I be reading following in my industry or outside my industry? To help me get better as a CMO?

Allison Netzer 37:49
Oh, wow. Well, they could definitely listen to this podcast. I think that that would be very beneficial since I've been a new convert. I think it's not so much the people I follow or, or where I look, not to get too philosophical. It's that I'm looking, that I'm finding. I'm a big fan of Thiago Forte, who wrote building a second brain. And I actually talked a little bit about that last week on the Friday frame up of just going through and just just pulling from just different places. I think specifically, if you're not in or on substack. That's a lot of medium form content that's out there that has a ton about creativity and creative thinking. I looked at forte labs, Tiago Forte's website.
So I think CMOS could get a lot out of that. But then I also follow a lot and read a lot about design, the art of design, so I can speak more credibly, to the people that work for me, and the work that they do. But also, this is a creative field, when you get to see a demo, you don't always get to practice the creativity that you used to be able to do. And I challenge that. So I think, looking at that heart of coaching Michael Bumgardner. There's just a lot of it out there. I actually send my reading list and the notes that I take, I send that out every Sunday. And so that might also be something that's helpful. It's kind of a wide range of stuff.

Jack Hubbard 39:37
Well, that brings us to our last question. You mentioned the Friday frame up the podcast etc. And now I'm now intrigued. I'm a CMO and I gotta talk to you. How do I get on the Friday frame up blog, podcast and how do I get a hold of you?

Allison Netzer 39:55
All the things? Well, I would be delighted. I am also Oh Okay, so I'm only on LinkedIn. So I'm not on all the things. I know that's kind of, you know, hypocritical, but I just can't. So I'm on LinkedIn. And then on my website, which is just my name, Allisonnetzerer.com. I just have links to all of these things if you're interested

Jack Hubbard 40:18
Outstanding. And speaking of outstanding, this is an intriguing book, you have to read this book. If you're a CMO. If you're a CEO. If you're an entrepreneur, there's something for everybody in this book, Allison, that sir, thank you very much for your kindness of your time, and your expertise, very much appreciated.

Allison Netzer 40:37
Thank you, Jack.

Jack Hubbard 40:39
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